Puppy in California

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-09-2010, 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.

Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder, I am sure that there are also US breeders without contract.
In our contracts it is clearly stated that the dog has to be offered to us if it can´t be kept any longer and that we will find another owner if we can´t take it back ourself. In the German contracts we did also put fines of several thousand Euros on giving the dog away without announcing to us and to breed it outside the FCI.
As for the puppy from our kennel we did send to the US, I think we didn´t really send cotracts back and fro but we had a good contact to the former owner for a very long period via mail and phone, she was an experienced owner with already another wolfdog who kept contact and gives us updates every now and then. As I have no possiblity tho upheld any contract in court I didn´t bother too much but I wouldn´t sell a puppy overseas not knowing the person since quite a time and making clear that we will take any puppy back if necessary.
And I know that almost all German breeder do the same.

As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina

yukidomari · 13-09-2010, 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina

What I am familiar with in the US:

For example, one of our dogs developed 2 luxating patellae around 7 months old. Her breeder offered another dog, or refund her cost to help her surgery. (We picked the second... we didn't need another dog at the time).

Especially for when a dog was brought with intention of showing or breeding, say that the dog develops debilitating hip dysplasia, I know of a few breeders who will give another show-quality dog when the owner is ready in addition to the disabled dog.

That is what I know of personally here.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-09-2010, 08:24

As HD is genetical but also depending on the upbringing of the dog I find this rather strange to give as a guarantee, what you do out of personal care is something different.
For me this makes a trading object out of your dog, like a car for example.

Law in Europe is simple on that point, if you pair two dogs that you know to give genetical problems to their offspring with high risk you have to stand for the following problems, especially if you didn´t tell the buyers in advance. If you did your best to avoid any problem you can exclude this risk because you are not responsible for problems you didn´t know of and therefor couldn´t prevent.

Ina

yukidomari · 13-09-2010, 08:30

Yes, I understand that HD is genetic as well as environmental, but as certain cases go, I can imagine that if it was severe or bilateral, it may sometimes be concluded to be more genetic rather than environmental. Actually, I don't know how much environment 'causes' HD, because I haven't read of any conclusive links between HD and things like exercise, diet, or otherwise. So if you know of any, I would really like to know. I have heard of very old dogs also, maybe around 11 or 12 years old, that still had OFFA scanned hips that were "Excellent", and he was an Aussie used for real herding. I believe our breeder believed our dog's luxating patellae were genetic because it was bilateral, and because it was diagnosed right around when genetic LPs usually are diagnosed.

Anyway, it is not so much a trade, as you don't give back the original dogs, at least, not in the contracts that I have read and agreed with. You can choose to keep your dog and when the time is right take the additional dog that will fulfill the original purpose (work, show).

But, I think many breeders also feel that some conditions are environmental as well. It's popular here for 'guarantees' to end right at 24 months old, right around when HD, if it will appear badly, to appear.

I understand legally, someone may not be liable, but it seems like the right thing to do... If a puppy buyer ends up with a disabled dog, I don't think I could just say to myself, 'that's very sad.. But just bad luck.'

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-09-2010, 08:57

There have been done studies in Berlin by Dämmrich ed.al. on the influence of feeding and exercise on HD. It must have been in the ninetees and I think it was published in "Kleintiermedizin".
I mainly agree but there is a legal difference between guarantee and taking care.

Rona · 13-09-2010, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder...

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!). It cannot be re-sold without the agreement of the breeder and if anything goes wrong the breeder should be informed about it asap under a penalty clause.

It's another question whether the owners obey the contracts or not

Unfortuantely, our courts do not treat breaking breeding contracts too seriously and it'd take ages by the time the case appeared.

So it's more a matter of honour/decendcy to fulfil the requirements, than a legal issue.

13-09-2010, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!).

I'm curious, how would something like this work in a country like the US where there really ARE no "breeding rights" to speak of.

Would it transfer to getting show or sport titles? Or is there a way to gain breeding rights when you're out of the country (as in, gaining the right to breed in Poland while living in the US). I'm also curious, what does it take to breed with the FCI? Are people in the US limited in anyway as far as registering litters?

yukidomari · 14-09-2010, 00:03

Ina - I understand what you're saying now and I agree. Thanks for clarifying.

Rona · 14-09-2010, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky

I'm also curious, what does it take to breed with the FCI? Are people in the US limited in anyway as far as registering litters?

In Europe almost every country has different national requirements for granting breeding rights + there are particular breed clubs that may add additional conditions, such as bonitation, endurance run, HD/ED X-rays, etc. etc.

Most national kennel clubs function under the auspices of the FCI and FCI encourages to respect the law of particular countries. This means that if the dog gains breeding rights in country A he may be used as rep in country B even though he does not fulfil the requirements for a rep in country B. This is theory, because in reality national specific breed clubs may limit such practices by not agreeing to certain matches or refusing to register litters of such parent. It could serve in favour or against breed development, depending on the knowledge, ambitions and intentions of the policy-makers.

I have no idea how this system corresponds with the US one but I think Marcy has already conducted research and wrote about it in some other thread some time ago. Check on her website if you don't find it on WD.

I think breeders solve the problem of sending pups abroad according to their common sense and to the extent they feel responsible for their pups' welfare. Usually they try to get to know future owners by corresponding with them for a while, gather opinions of other owners, ask them to come to collect the pup personally (which often is cheaper/ safer than cargo), or even take the pups themselves to see in what conditions it will live and to check if the owner may be trusted. I think the personal/ethical side is more important here than the contract, especially when one sends the dog to another continent.

Unfortunately, breeders who send the pups most eagerly abroad, without even a contract not to mention proper 'owner research' are usually the least reliable...

Pete · 30-12-2010, 05:49

testing to post

Pete · 30-12-2010, 06:06

Sorry I am having trouble posting for some reason. I have 2 WD's from Germany and I love them. I have raised Cane Corso for several years, my first had HD at 5 months old and I was given a 14 week old pup with a limp, terrible temperament, lunged at kids that young and never stopped, scared of everything and everyone. I named her Belmonte's Double or Noth'n and guess what I ended up with!! From there I imported my pups flying over several times to pick them myself. I have bred many very nice litters and I have always offered a 3 year health guarantee on all pups. I have delivered pups to Vancouver and Halifax to meet the owners, I have driven almost to Canada twice to meet people and rehome adult dogs. I am available 7 days per week to all my puppy owners, I request pics to be able to watch thier growth and health. I have been very lucky not having to replace pups left and right like some have and I am happy with that, so are my puppy owners. I feel my 3 year health guarantee shows my confidence in my breeding program unlike those that offer 2 years as one poster stated when HD might just start to appear. I understand HD is/can be genetic and or environmental but I prefer to back up what I produce unless of course I have reason not to. I have only replaced a couple dogs for HD and I know most owners don't xray unless there is a problem but there are breeders having to replace pups before they are even a year old so I consider myself very lucky. I like using email rather then phone calls because I then have something to refer back to and if I feel something in that email is not right I am able to question it in a later email and in most case's that person does not remember what they have already said. People can tell you what they think you want to hear so even the best screaning sometimes is not good enough.

13-09-2010, 08:30	#4
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Yes, I understand that HD is genetic as well as environmental, but as certain cases go, I can imagine that if it was severe or bilateral, it may sometimes be concluded to be more genetic rather than environmental. Actually, I don't know how much environment 'causes' HD, because I haven't read of any conclusive links between HD and things like exercise, diet, or otherwise. So if you know of any, I would really like to know. I have heard of very old dogs also, maybe around 11 or 12 years old, that still had OFFA scanned hips that were "Excellent", and he was an Aussie used for real herding. I believe our breeder believed our dog's luxating patellae were genetic because it was bilateral, and because it was diagnosed right around when genetic LPs usually are diagnosed. Anyway, it is not so much a trade, as you don't give back the original dogs, at least, not in the contracts that I have read and agreed with. You can choose to keep your dog and when the time is right take the additional dog that will fulfill the original purpose (work, show). But, I think many breeders also feel that some conditions are environmental as well. It's popular here for 'guarantees' to end right at 24 months old, right around when HD, if it will appear badly, to appear. I understand legally, someone may not be liable, but it seems like the right thing to do... If a puppy buyer ends up with a disabled dog, I don't think I could just say to myself, 'that's very sad.. But just bad luck.' Last edited by yukidomari; 13-09-2010 at 08:42.

30-12-2010, 05:49	#10
Pete Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 5	problems posting!!! testing to post

30-12-2010, 06:06	#11
Pete Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 5	guarantee's Sorry I am having trouble posting for some reason. I have 2 WD's from Germany and I love them. I have raised Cane Corso for several years, my first had HD at 5 months old and I was given a 14 week old pup with a limp, terrible temperament, lunged at kids that young and never stopped, scared of everything and everyone. I named her Belmonte's Double or Noth'n and guess what I ended up with!! From there I imported my pups flying over several times to pick them myself. I have bred many very nice litters and I have always offered a 3 year health guarantee on all pups. I have delivered pups to Vancouver and Halifax to meet the owners, I have driven almost to Canada twice to meet people and rehome adult dogs. I am available 7 days per week to all my puppy owners, I request pics to be able to watch thier growth and health. I have been very lucky not having to replace pups left and right like some have and I am happy with that, so are my puppy owners. I feel my 3 year health guarantee shows my confidence in my breeding program unlike those that offer 2 years as one poster stated when HD might just start to appear. I understand HD is/can be genetic and or environmental but I prefer to back up what I produce unless of course I have reason not to. I have only replaced a couple dogs for HD and I know most owners don't xray unless there is a problem but there are breeders having to replace pups before they are even a year old so I consider myself very lucky. I like using email rather then phone calls because I then have something to refer back to and if I feel something in that email is not right I am able to question it in a later email and in most case's that person does not remember what they have already said. People can tell you what they think you want to hear so even the best screaning sometimes is not good enough.

13-09-2010, 08:24	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As HD is genetical but also depending on the upbringing of the dog I find this rather strange to give as a guarantee, what you do out of personal care is something different. For me this makes a trading object out of your dog, like a car for example. Law in Europe is simple on that point, if you pair two dogs that you know to give genetical problems to their offspring with high risk you have to stand for the following problems, especially if you didn´t tell the buyers in advance. If you did your best to avoid any problem you can exclude this risk because you are not responsible for problems you didn´t know of and therefor couldn´t prevent. Ina

13-09-2010, 08:57	#5
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	There have been done studies in Berlin by Dämmrich ed.al. on the influence of feeding and exercise on HD. It must have been in the ninetees and I think it was published in "Kleintiermedizin". I mainly agree but there is a legal difference between guarantee and taking care.

14-09-2010, 00:03	#8
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Ina - I understand what you're saying now and I agree. Thanks for clarifying.