Health of the breeds

elf · 31-07-2008, 16:00

I know at least 3 breeders in Europe which are crossing SWH and American wolfdogs because of the SWH growing up health troubles. I guess not a business issue because these dogs are no more expensive and the production is rather limited. (don't know if they are registered as SWH/CSW or not).
Where is the truth, SWH is an healthy breed ? Discussing with some SWH breeders it seems it's not the case anymore. Checking the linebreeding rate, I don't see how this breed can be healthy in the future (btw also true for CSW, the genetic pool would be enough if breeders respected good breeding rules but it's not the case in huge cases). Sad but true.

elf · 31-07-2008, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika

Anthony, as Paula already said, these "producer" always argue for health-problems

You are right Angelika.
I'm still wondering how is true or untrue that SWH breeds get more and more unhealthy ? Is it really true that pra, epilepsy, heart trouble, dwarfs, dead born litters or very few puppy, arise more and more ? One can find statistical health resources to help to sort this out ? Unfortunately it's not as difficult as one can think to have a genetic bottleneck population.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 31-07-2008, 18:42

The health problems in Sarloos are nothing new but CSW still are over average health compared to other breeds.
What people tend to forget is that you have to find homes for several hybrids and coming back to England that Timberwolf definetly has nothing to do with CSW. Just google wolfdogs in USA and you will find several shelters and rescue societies together with reports about accidents. There are very good reasons why not every state does allow hybrids.
For all people I know keeping hybrids health wasn´t the main reason to get one. Very many of them feel save at the moment having animals that are not adult now, not realising that the difficult times haven´t come yet.

We raised and are responsible for 8 European wolfves at the moment and believe me even a half- or quater-wolf is much more than the common owner can handle not to mention the daily stress those poor creatures very often have. On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Another point is that people think there are no diseases in wolves at all, that is simply not true, they just don´t reproduce on long terms. The same is with the thought that health problems will disapear just with crossing in one wolf, most of the Sarloos-problems seem to be recessiv, they just won´t show up for some years but the problems will come back unless you keep on with crossing in.

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves. Breeding hybrids in private hands is for me an absolutely irresponsible and egocentric new hype. And irresponsible and egocentric people are horrible breeders.

Ina

elf · 31-07-2008, 19:11

Quote:

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves.

I do agree with all that (and also for sure for hybrids living conditions...), but in my opinion expecting good breeding practices is not realistic, dogs is a business and especially for dogs the price a CSW/SWH. So I would lean to a severely controlled new blood introduction (the use of DNA-Tests would be necessary otherwise it may only leads to new diseases introduction) ... I guess it's not something that will happened any time soon in CSW or SWH. Let's say in 20 years ?

Rona · 31-07-2008, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Ina, I fully support your point of view. Any attempts to experiment with wolf hybrids or any wild animals by people who don't have good projects approved and supported by relevant authorities, who lack contingency plans together with very good scientific background & facillities, accompanied by solid financial backing and who don't ACT OPENLY (e.g. write honest, valid reports, present their findings at conferecnes etc.) is a sign of their total lack of imagination, responsibility and common sense. In my opinion they should be penalized for such deeds....

Besides, the huge suffering that occured in the Pohranicny Straze Kennel of both animals and people who were taking heartbreaking decisions is a reason valid enough to do everything to protect the breed from greedy maniacs.

elf · 31-07-2008, 19:54

I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 31-07-2008, 20:34

I agree with you in this point, but there is the possibility to use CSW for that (and has been used allready). That doesn´t excuse the breeding of CSW with Tibers like in Mr. Winders case, and it doesn´t excuse the breeding of hybrids in general.
And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now.

Ina

nanouk · 31-07-2008, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

One wonders where you base that on?
SWD like TWD and any other breed have some health problems. Since shortly there is a test for dwarfism available, something that will not only tell us if dwarfism is really a problem in SWD but will aslo help us with a better breeding for the future.
I do not claim the SWH does not know disease, but the breed is not finished without 'new' blood, only a cooperation with NVSWH and those dogs being used now are enough 'new' blood the breed needs! Cooperation and smart breeding is worth so much more as new blood.
Post like that seem to justify crossbreeding, feed fear and rumour, and lack facts.

I know several TWD with severe HD, know some other with other health problems.. does that justify me generalizing that all TWD are sick.. i doubt.
SWD is more inbred as TWD, but with the data i have on SWD i can in confidence say that i don#t see the future of SWD as negative as some as you do......

But the discussion is smartly diverted this way from pacino kennels to health

jennyw1 · 02-09-2008, 17:13

Is there any statistic about Stomac illness or other healt problems how can bring Csw problems for life or put the dog in that situation that we must put the dog to sleep.

Hanka · 02-09-2008, 18:49

Statistic no exist, only czech breed comission watch some problems, if it is in population.

jennyw1 · 02-09-2008, 19:08

But then i m looking forward too hear about it from Csw dog owners who healty is your dogs?

31-07-2008, 16:00	#1
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Health of the breeds I know at least 3 breeders in Europe which are crossing SWH and American wolfdogs because of the SWH growing up health troubles. I guess not a business issue because these dogs are no more expensive and the production is rather limited. (don't know if they are registered as SWH/CSW or not). Where is the truth, SWH is an healthy breed ? Discussing with some SWH breeders it seems it's not the case anymore. Checking the linebreeding rate, I don't see how this breed can be healthy in the future (btw also true for CSW, the genetic pool would be enough if breeders respected good breeding rules but it's not the case in huge cases). Sad but true.

02-09-2008, 17:13	#9
jennyw1 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 20	How common is Stomac illness and other healt problems? Is there any statistic about Stomac illness or other healt problems how can bring Csw problems for life or put the dog in that situation that we must put the dog to sleep.

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31-07-2008, 18:42	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	The health problems in Sarloos are nothing new but CSW still are over average health compared to other breeds. What people tend to forget is that you have to find homes for several hybrids and coming back to England that Timberwolf definetly has nothing to do with CSW. Just google wolfdogs in USA and you will find several shelters and rescue societies together with reports about accidents. There are very good reasons why not every state does allow hybrids. For all people I know keeping hybrids health wasn´t the main reason to get one. Very many of them feel save at the moment having animals that are not adult now, not realising that the difficult times haven´t come yet. We raised and are responsible for 8 European wolfves at the moment and believe me even a half- or quater-wolf is much more than the common owner can handle not to mention the daily stress those poor creatures very often have. On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then? Another point is that people think there are no diseases in wolves at all, that is simply not true, they just don´t reproduce on long terms. The same is with the thought that health problems will disapear just with crossing in one wolf, most of the Sarloos-problems seem to be recessiv, they just won´t show up for some years but the problems will come back unless you keep on with crossing in. The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves. Breeding hybrids in private hands is for me an absolutely irresponsible and egocentric new hype. And irresponsible and egocentric people are horrible breeders. Ina

31-07-2008, 19:54	#6
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

31-07-2008, 20:34	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I agree with you in this point, but there is the possibility to use CSW for that (and has been used allready). That doesn´t excuse the breeding of CSW with Tibers like in Mr. Winders case, and it doesn´t excuse the breeding of hybrids in general. And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now. Ina

02-09-2008, 18:49	#10
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Statistic no exist, only czech breed comission watch some problems, if it is in population.

02-09-2008, 19:08	#11
jennyw1 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 20	But then i m looking forward too hear about it from Csw dog owners who healty is your dogs?