de Louba Tar kennel

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

For that, i must say, that database of WOLFDOG.ORG is not correct. I think amount of dogs not hold true by many owner / breeder.

You're probably right, Suski, but the size of the kennel is not the core issue here, isn't it? It only indicates the scale of the problem - it would be easier to rehome 2-3, even 5 dogs than 20 or more.

Paul, I suppose everybody would be grateful for more information and more details, such as e.g. when and by whom these photos were taken and what steps were taken....
You've publicly made a serious accusation - honestly, it's hard to belive any breeder would keep his/her animals in such conditions - it would be totally irrational in the long run. Maybe the owner is sick or so, can't cope and needs help instead of criticism?

Has anybody else visited the place or bought pup/pups from this kennel? Can Paul's information be confirmed by others? Has the issue been ever discussed on the French forum?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

this is purely disgusting.
Yes, these conditions can be confirmed by a friend of mine who purchased a Saarlooswolfhond in the early 90's in Holland at her former puppy mill.
The conditions weren't much better at that time as he told me.
I haven't been to her place in France but a few other people reported the same as Paul had shown on his pics.
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.

Cheers,

Michael

[*Satu]

That place need help and very soon
And i know that place it´s not onlyone.

[Mirkawolf]

I am not really surprised about this. What surprises me, is that the conditions at this (or certain other kennels) were for a long time "accepted" or "ignored" and all of a sudden, it is a big thing and actions are to be taken.

What took so long? Or so to say, what made the change..?

I´ve seen in real some Louba Tar dogs in October 2005 on the special CSW dog show in Hoenderloo. They were all skinny and light-boned, very different from wolfdogs that I am used to see. I posted the photos at that time, there was an article about that dog show. Nobody was stressed about the look of the dogs at that time. Why now, all of a sudden?

Some of the photos of Louba Tar dogs, that I took at Hoenderloo, you can see here.

Btw., as a price for the winners, dog food for medium sized dogs was given....

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.
Michael

I know that rumour too. I did not visit the kennel personally, but I´ve made my opinion from the unified look of the Saarloos wolfdogs and Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, that come from this kennel.. they all look the same, more or less. Btw., if you look well, you can see at least one picture from Pacino, that in one cage there is CSW and Saarloos together.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,

this is purely disgusting.
Yes, these conditions can be confirmed by a friend of mine who purchased a Saarlooswolfhond in the early 90's in Holland at her former puppy mill.
The conditions weren't much better at that time as he told me.
I haven't been to her place in France but a few other people reported the same as Paul had shown on his pics.
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.

Cheers,

Michael

hi, yes i am sure there are other people who can supply photos and information, if you have anything it can be forwarded to me via email or post, i only need facts with evidence, rumors about people will always be here as they always have been, i only need evidence or people who are prepared to make and sign statments, and will be prepared to go to court if required, regards paul

[furyos]

goodnight everybody ... first thing...y m not a big breeder but y know mrs keizer 20years ago ...when she breed saarloos ..... well this pictures are (y think )so "manipulate action"!!!!y explain ...when it s rain ...sure yur dogs are so dirty and when it s spring or automn they change their coat ...sure they are not top of their beauty ...y visit keizer's kennel in summer and winter and can say that dogs are so nice and not dirty ...with pictures or movies yu can believe all yu see(hitler do this in propaganda..remember!!!!!) .....well now ...second things ::::y don t know mr paul(pacino) but y hear that version .../he live in keizer 's kennel 18months ...(with his wife and 7 dogs) and one day he leave for 4 months to go in travel and forget his dog.... to health of mr keizer ...after this experience ...he try a kennel in uk ...and want buy some dogs (because so good quality in dog show )to keizer kennel ...but she refuse this proposition ...and of course mr pacino don' t accept that and so so ungry and try all negative action to her ....and try all he can do to insult ms keizer ...A proove about that???? HOW MR PACINO HAVE THIS .... PICTURES????????????????????????if he don' t have an friendly intimity relation of live with mrs keizer before ???well y believe allways what y can see alone and y m not a "lamb who follow the group" ...BEWARE about that !!!!!!!!!!!....and ONLY ONE VERSION is not THE TRUTH ......y don t know mr pacino but y hate someone try to discradite an other person like politik men ...if yu have private problem with someone yu keep this private and not do this in public action like a forum ....this is my opinion ....y don' t give bad jugment if y don 't see alone the real personality about someone ...y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

[furyos]

me agin ...just a questionfor mr paul ... ...y don t know yu and y don t juge yu of course BUT can yu explain mr paul why yu wait 3 years to write this and send this pictures ???? if yur sentiments in love about dogs contitions are top... why yu do a late reaction on this forum ???? and just explain to me WHY???? ,, reality please ....(in private reply if yu want) .... furyos

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

me agin ...just a questionfor mr paul ... ...y don t know yu and y don t juge yu of course BUT can yu explain mr paul why yu wait 3 years to write this and send this pictures ???? if yur sentiments in love about dogs contitions are top... why yu do a late reaction on this forum ???? and just explain to me WHY???? ,, reality please ....(in private reply if yu want) .... furyos

hi i will reply on line as i have nothing to hide, i have already given my reason as to why it has taken so long, so you must first of all read my mails, rain and bad weather does not cause dogs to get thin, nore does it cover a kennel in dog poo that has clearly been there for a while, as for selective breeding, well you like everyone else will have to wait a while yet then you can mail me again and explane about MRS Keizers selective breeding programe for you are in for a nasty shock, i have wanted to make this public for a long time but had to wait on the { red tape} to be sorted by the authorities, also to make sure the dogs will be safe as the French authorities have as you all know put down over 40 dogs at a kennels in France, i and others have made statements and given evidence and we will let the f.c.i. and the courts decide who is correct, i assure you we will win our case hands down, best regards paul uk

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

goodnight everybody ... first thing...y m not a big breeder but y know mrs keizer 20years ago ...when she breed saarloos ..... well this pictures are (y think )so "manipulate action"!!!!y explain ...when it s rain ...sure yur dogs are so dirty and when it s spring or automn they change their coat ...sure they are not top of their beauty ...y visit keizer's kennel in summer and winter and can say that dogs are so nice and not dirty ...with pictures or movies yu can believe all yu see(hitler do this in propaganda..remember!!!!!) .....well now ...second things ::::y don t know mr paul(pacino) but y hear that version .../he live in keizer 's kennel 18months ...(with his wife and 7 dogs) and one day he leave for 4 months to go in travel and forget his dog.... to health of mr keizer ...after this experience ...he try a kennel in uk ...and want buy some dogs (because so good quality in dog show )to keizer kennel ...but she refuse this proposition ...and of course mr pacino don' t accept that and so so ungry and try all negative action to her ....and try all he can do to insult ms keizer ...A proove about that???? HOW MR PACINO HAVE THIS .... PICTURES????????????????????????if he don' t have an friendly intimity relation of live with mrs keizer before ???well y believe allways what y can see alone and y m not a "lamb who follow the group" ...BEWARE about that !!!!!!!!!!!....and ONLY ONE VERSION is not THE TRUTH ......y don t know mr pacino but y hate someone try to discradite an other person like politik men ...if yu have private problem with someone yu keep this private and not do this in public action like a forum ....this is my opinion ....y don' t give bad jugment if y don 't see alone the real personality about someone ...y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

hi first of all i do not hate MRS Keizer, but only what she has been doing with the dogs, and what other people who buy her dogs do not know about them, including things with pedigrees and false registration, did you know MRS kEIZER HAS NO BREEDERS LICENCE IN fRANCE,,,, well you do now... i did get my first czech via Mrs Keizer but it was not from her kennel , surprised// i left France to have the first litter of Czechs in uk.. i have owned and bred dogs successfully in uk for over 30 yrs , my bitch akita produced the top winning akita bitch in usa of all time, also the top winning dog A ustralia, so i am not an novice at dogs or breeding, I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT A DE LOUBA TAR DOG,,, if i didnt have good relations with MRS kEIZER THEN WHY DID I STAY 18 MTHS,,,, it took a long time to discover what was going on, i then asked questions and found someone who has worked a long time to stop this kennels, with there help we now have all we need, yes at present you only have my side of things and i do understand that if you are a friend of Mrs Keizers that you have every right to be upset, but you will be very very upset soon, but not with me,,, do you really think i would put this on a web site if i could not prove all i say,, surely Mrs Keizer would have a solisitor contact me for slander, or deformission of caracter, in case Mrs Keizer has not my details here they are,
mr paul winder
station farm
station road
appledore
kent
tn26 2dg.
thank you best regards paul..

[elf]

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

[furyos]

hi everybody;..yes y 'm agree with elf...y think that yur charges are so so important ..... and see on a private war ...but this is just my opinion ...mr paul you are free ....and you can think and do what yu think the best for yur mind ...BUT y don' t think that the solution is on this forum .... that's all ...yur image can became dark also....but yu are adult guy and it's so easy to have just one version .....y study in the pass law (but y m not lawer)and y think that yur acts on this forum are little too mutch in their foundments .... y try to respect all people and y prefer stop my intervention on this reply NOW!!! ....it's not my war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....regards ..furyos

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by elf

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

hi why are you surprised i made this public, are you not glad that we take action against this breeder, are you not glad that you now know the conditions the dogs have to live in, of coarse we take legal action we want it stoped for good, of coarse Mrs Keizer will be right she is a very well educated woman and very intelligent, and i did myself learn things from her, and i have been breeding dogs for 30 yrs, Mrs Keizer is very knowledgable about both the czech and saarloos breeds and i went there to learn before a took on a czechoslovakian wolfdog, this is even more reason why there is no excuse for the conditions the dogs live in, as you are phd graduate in genetics then you will know if you cross a poodle with a husky you cant call the offspring a poodle nor can you call it a husky MRS KEIZER ALSO KNOWS THIS////////

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by furyos

y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

Sorry, but I disagree here with you. Very good dog in show does not mean excellent dog. And always, always the standard should be kept.
De Louba Tar does not x-ray the dogs (or at least, the results are not known), it does not do bonitations, and the selection in breeding, if there is any, is rather unclear. Most of the dogs from this kennel look very, very different than standard CSW, sorry to say.
Perhaps they might be winning dog shows in Netherlands or France, when judges, friends of Mr. Keizer are judging. But the very same dogs would not get better than very good, if they were judged by judges, specialists to the breed. Which is why you will never see these dogs at such dog shows.
If that´s selection, it is very incorrect, if I say it nicely. If I am blunt, as usual, I say it is no selection at all, just mass production of puppies.

By what one measures experience with the race? By amount of puppies, produced in one kennel? Or by amount of dogs, one had kept in his kennels and never did anything with them during the years? Or by amount of dog shows, one had time to visit?

I had met people, who considered themselves dog experts, because they had dogs at home for more than twenty years. Yet they did not understand their dogs basic behaviour and their dogs did not even have the basic obedience.

I used to breed at home rabbits for more than ten years, should I be considered a rabbit specialist now? I don´t think so.

[elf]

So for me that kind of argumentation is a little bit strange.

Ina, please notice that I said "we only exchanged emails about the breed" and not said "I analyse all the breeding program". This is quiet different, this is a very serious story so everyone has to choose carefully its words and read carefully eachother.

Anthony

[*Satu]

I don´t see any sick dogs.
Some dog are little light conditions but not too thin.But i can´t say anything only about pics.

I have seen Mrs Keizer ones whit his saarloos and these dog was look nice and healty.

Pacino do you have summertime pics?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by furyos

..y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ..u never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

Originally Posted by elf

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

Well, I just know Mrs. Keizer from one dog show and of stories of several Saarloos owners and the (very reliable) person Michael talked of - none of them positive.
I don´t know many of her dogs all I have seen haven´t been very good, looking at the standart and all of them have been shy but that may be accidential, maybe I only saw the wrong dogs.
But I just had a look at the datas of her kennel at wolfdog.org and besides the fact that none of her breeding dogs ever made a bonitation and that she never bothered to show them to a specialised judge or to show their HD-results, I have to say that for me a good selection and breeding program is something very different. She repeated the O-litter pairing one year later and the A-litter pairing 4 years later, if you look at the pedigrees there is not much variety over 10 years.
I personally think there are a lot of people that are much better sources for information and breeding for our breed.

So you may be right about her kind of dog keeping but I don´t know anybody going to official bonitations and clubshows with judges that know their job, that would agree with you about the selection and genetic point. So for me that kind of argumentation is a little bit strange.

Ina


Ina

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Rona

You're probably right, Suski, but the size of the kennel is not the core issue here, isn't it? It only indicates the scale of the problem - it would be easier to rehome 2-3, even 5 dogs than 20 or more.

Paul, I suppose everybody would be grateful for more information and more details, such as e.g. when and by whom these photos were taken and what steps were taken....
You've publicly made a serious accusation - honestly, it's hard to belive any breeder would keep his/her animals in such conditions - it would be totally irrational in the long run. Maybe the owner is sick or so, can't cope and needs help instead of criticism?

Has anybody else visited the place or bought pup/pups from this kennel? Can Paul's information be confirmed by others? Has the issue been ever discussed on the French forum?

hi first of all my wife and i lived and worked at the de louba tar kennels for 18 mths, there was 49 dogs at the kennel in febuary 2002 we left in 2004 there was 199 dog at these kennel, we could not cope with the work, 15 hrs a day, there were other witnesses there when a friend and my self took the photos and made the videos, we did not report the matter because if you all remember in 2003 the French authorities went to kennels in mid France and destroyed over 40 dogs just because a breeder did not comply to regulations, we did not want this to happen as we loved all the dogs and knew them so well, we did seek help and it has taken a long time to assure the dogs will not be harmed, but action has started and things are now moving, as you all well know Mrs Keizer is both fit and well and still attends dog shows all over Europe, is still breeding and still selling dogs as you can see on this site as there is one or two needing new homes, so the answer to your question is the person sick or in ill health is NO, i can back up all i say both by photos and video clips, i also have independant witnesses who have all made statments, and all has been forwarded to the authorities, the dog conditions are only the tip of the iceburg there are other irregularities with this breeder that i am sorry i can not tell you about as there are other people involved , but as soon as i get word from Holland and France i will make it all public, paul uk

[the pack]

Originally Posted by Rona

You're probably right, Suski, but the size of the kennel is not the core issue here, isn't it? It only indicates the scale of the problem - it would be easier to rehome 2-3, even 5 dogs than 20 or more.

Paul, I suppose everybody would be grateful for more information and more details, such as e.g. when and by whom these photos were taken and what steps were taken....
You've publicly made a serious accusation - honestly, it's hard to belive any breeder would keep his/her animals in such conditions - it would be totally irrational in the long run. Maybe the owner is sick or so, can't cope and needs help instead of criticism?

Has anybody else visited the place or bought pup/pups from this kennel? Can Paul's information be confirmed by others? Has the issue been ever discussed on the French forum?

Hi, I'm new here and a saarlooswolfdogowner.I have visited Corrie's kennel once and met her several times on shows etc.When I visited the kennel in France we got the grand tour, and it struck me that allthough she has that many dogs, they were welltreated and looked after!It is true that Corrie likes her dogs skinny, and so do I, but I think that some dogs on the pictures suffer from some kind of desease, and this is certainly not the look of the majority of dogs. The pictures were most certainly taken after a once a year big rainfall, because when we were there it rained also and there were absolutely no flooded kennels!I remember also to have met the person that took the pictures, I think he and his woman were working as volunteers at that time but I can be wrong....?HälsningarRickSweden

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Hi, I'm new here and a saarlooswolfdogowner.I have visited Corrie's kennel once and met her several times on shows etc.When I visited the kennel in France we got the grand tour, and it struck me that allthough she has that many dogs, they were welltreated and looked after!It is true that Corrie likes her dogs skinny, and so do I, but I think that some dogs on the pictures suffer from some kind of desease, and this is certainly not the look of the majority of dogs. The pictures were most certainly taken after a once a year big rainfall, because when we were there it rained also and there were absolutely no flooded kennels!I remember also to have met the person that took the pictures, I think he and his woman were working as volunteers at that time but I can be wrong....?HälsningarRickSweden

hi if you visited as you say when my wife and i worked at de louba tar and it was raining, even when it rained lightly the pens flooded or has lots of surface water as the drainage was no existant, are you sure it was de louba tar kennels? so you got the grand tour, then you wont mind telling us all, how many dogs do you recall seeing? how many litters of pups did you see? where you in the cellar? where you in the maternity unit? where you in front or side gardens? you like your dogs skinny like Mrs Keizer,,, if i thought or could prove you have dogs this thin i would report you to the authorities as well,,please forward a photo of one of you skinny dogs to us all to see ,thank you for your post best regards paul

[furyos]

hi paul...my e mail is [email protected] ...yu can have yur good reasons but please why put yur intentions here on this forum ...do your legal action if yu think yu are in yur right side but not write ..just to write ..After yur proove can be published but talk to talk is for me too mutch " teenager or child action"......adult reaction is for me do with legal authorities what yu think but not write like propaganda here ...best regards too ...furyos