de Louba Tar kennel

[solowolf]

Envoyé par furyos

goodnight everybody ... first thing...y m not a big breeder but y know mrs keizer 20years ago ...when she breed saarloos ..... well this pictures are (y think )so "manipulate action"!!!!y explain ...when it s rain ...sure yur dogs are so dirty and when it s spring or automn they change their coat ...sure they are not top of their beauty ...y visit keizer's kennel in summer and winter and can say that dogs are so nice and not dirty ...with pictures or movies yu can believe all yu see(hitler do this in propaganda..remember!!!!!) .....well now ...second things ::::y don t know mr paul(pacino) but y hear that version .../he live in keizer 's kennel 18months ...(with his wife and 7 dogs) and one day he leave for 4 months to go in travel and forget his dog.... to health of mr keizer ...after this experience ...he try a kennel in uk ...and want buy some dogs (because so good quality in dog show )to keizer kennel ...but she refuse this proposition ...and of course mr pacino don' t accept that and so so ungry and try all negative action to her ....and try all he can do to insult ms keizer ...A proove about that???? HOW MR PACINO HAVE THIS .... PICTURES????????????????????????if he don' t have an friendly intimity relation of live with mrs keizer before ???well y believe allways what y can see alone and y m not a "lamb who follow the group" ...BEWARE about that !!!!!!!!!!!....and ONLY ONE VERSION is not THE TRUTH ......y don t know mr pacino but y hate someone try to discradite an other person like politik men ...if yu have private problem with someone yu keep this private and not do this in public action like a forum ....this is my opinion ....y don' t give bad jugment if y don 't see alone the real personality about someone ...y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

hi first of all i do not hate MRS Keizer, but only what she has been doing with the dogs, and what other people who buy her dogs do not know about them, including things with pedigrees and false registration, did you know MRS kEIZER HAS NO BREEDERS LICENCE IN fRANCE,,,, well you do now... i did get my first czech via Mrs Keizer but it was not from her kennel , surprised// i left France to have the first litter of Czechs in uk.. i have owned and bred dogs successfully in uk for over 30 yrs , my bitch akita produced the top winning akita bitch in usa of all time, also the top winning dog A ustralia, so i am not an novice at dogs or breeding, I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT A DE LOUBA TAR DOG,,, if i didnt have good relations with MRS kEIZER THEN WHY DID I STAY 18 MTHS,,,, it took a long time to discover what was going on, i then asked questions and found someone who has worked a long time to stop this kennels, with there help we now have all we need, yes at present you only have my side of things and i do understand that if you are a friend of Mrs Keizers that you have every right to be upset, but you will be very very upset soon, but not with me,,, do you really think i would put this on a web site if i could not prove all i say,, surely Mrs Keizer would have a solisitor contact me for slander, or deformission of caracter, in case Mrs Keizer has not my details here they are,
mr paul winder
station farm
station road
appledore
kent
tn26 2dg.
thank you best regards paul..

[elf]

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

[furyos]

hi everybody;..yes y 'm agree with elf...y think that yur charges are so so important ..... and see on a private war ...but this is just my opinion ...mr paul you are free ....and you can think and do what yu think the best for yur mind ...BUT y don' t think that the solution is on this forum .... that's all ...yur image can became dark also....but yu are adult guy and it's so easy to have just one version .....y study in the pass law (but y m not lawer)and y think that yur acts on this forum are little too mutch in their foundments .... y try to respect all people and y prefer stop my intervention on this reply NOW!!! ....it's not my war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....regards ..furyos

[solowolf]

Envoyé par furyos

hi everybody;..yes y 'm agree with elf...y think that yur charges are so so important ..... and see on a private war ...but this is just my opinion ...mr paul you are free ....and you can think and do what yu think the best for yur mind ...BUT y don' t think that the solution is on this forum .... that's all ...yur image can became dark also....but yu are adult guy and it's so easy to have just one version .....y study in the pass law (but y m not lawer)and y think that yur acts on this forum are little too mutch in their foundments .... y try to respect all people and y prefer stop my intervention on this reply NOW!!! ....it's not my war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....regards ..furyos

hi its not a war, i feel it is my duty to both the czechoslovakian wolfdogs and the saarloos wolfhounds that have to live like this, i lived with these dogs for a long time and loved everyone of them, when i left two of my friends came to see us, when we made the photos and videos, we went to the kitchen area all four people in that room broke down and cried, yet we could not do anything for fear of the Frence authorities would destroy the dogs, it will all become clear very soon, i put this on the forum because the time was right and i want to make it clear, I and others want this breeder to be brought to justice, you will be amazed at what has been going on for over 15 yrs in Europe with the czech and saarloos, and the people involved, i want the dog world to know the facts, and when they come out then i am free to be critisized if it is felt nessesary, i respect people as a rule but when breeding dogs you are responsable for what you breed and sell, and if it is not correct then you sell dogs under fraudulent lies, the czechs and saarloos from these kennels look nothing like or even come in to there breed standards/// paul

[Rona]

I'm not defending or attacting de Louba Tar, I know nothing about the breeder. Ina's comments sound very reasonable.... thanks for bringing some common sense into the discussion, Ina.

Paul, I'm trying hard to follow your way of reasoning, but could you try to be a little more precise? It would really help us understand your position.

Envoyé par pacino

i put this on the forum because the time was right

What happend to make the time right? French regulations've changed? You managed to get some authorities promise the dogs will not be exterminated? Maybe evidence was compiled? Or something else's happened? Tell us. Otherwise it looks strange - you looked after those skinny dogs every day for 18 months, left the place and now, after a few years, all of the sudden begin an "action"....and even now it's not clear what sort of action

Envoyé par pacino

you will be amazed at what has been going on for over 15 yrs in Europe with the czech and saarloos,

Well, what has been going on? Tell us what you have in mind. I suppose lots of things have been going on - some very positive and some very nasty. We hear occassionaly about both. But what do YOU mean exactly - facts, facts please.

Envoyé par pacino

when they come out then i am free to be critisized if it is felt nessesary

When, where and how will they come out? Is there a case in court? Did you inform the police? Maybe a TV programme is being made?

I suppose you have your truth, you reasons and probably evidence. But this is a public place and if you accuse somebody of something it's not enough to just say "one day you'll find out". You either provide good evidence, or tell exactly where and when one can see the evidence or ....write nothing. Otherwise it raises doubts. Anything can be written on the forum, as you probably know, and it's very hard to depict what is true, and what isn't.

What really matters is the condition of the dogs. It would be good to obtain some objective, reliable and recently confirmed info, not just old photos.

[solowolf]

Envoyé par Rona

I'm not defending or attacting de Louba Tar, I know nothing about the breeder. Ina's comments sound very reasonable.... thanks for bringing some common sense into the discussion, Ina.

Paul, I'm trying hard to follow your way of reasoning, but could you try to be a little more precise? It would really help us understand your position.

What happend to make the time right? French regulations've changed? You managed to get some authorities promise the dogs will not be exterminated? Maybe evidence was compiled? Or something else's happened? Tell us. Otherwise it looks strange - you looked after those skinny dogs every day for 18 months, left the place and now, after a few years, all of the sudden begin an "action"....and even now it's not clear what sort of action


Well, what has been going on? Tell us what you have in mind. I suppose lots of things have been going on - some very positive and some very nasty. We hear occassionaly about both. But what do YOU mean exactly - facts, facts please.


When, where and how will they come out? Is there a case in court? Did you inform the police? Maybe a TV programme is being made?

I suppose you have your truth, you reasons and probably evidence. But this is a public place and if you accuse somebody of something it's not enough to just say "one day you'll find out". You either provide good evidence, or tell exactly where and when one can see the evidence or ....write nothing. Otherwise it raises doubts. Anything can be written on the forum, as you probably know, and it's very hard to depict what is true, and what isn't.

What really matters is the condition of the dogs. It would be good to obtain some objective, reliable and recently confirmed info, not just old photos.

it has been very frustrating for us as we had to gather lots of evidence, it has taken a long time, we can not work on hear say, we needed hard evidence that could be used in court, we needed wittnesses to make statements, photo, videos, there are other people involved as well, so yet more evidence was needed, it took over a year to find just one dog we needed, and it has been hard every day as in our hearts we knew that the dogs we so despiratly wanted to help were still living in hell,, our evidense has been sent to the authorities and other places, untill we get the reply i can not say anything, i was told i could now show the photos and some videos, and i put them up right away to make sure people could see the conditions of the dogs, in your mail posted to day it states {all we see is old photos /////} for your benifit look at the last photo on my web site IT WAS TAKEN TWO WEEKS AGO..... so nothing has changed,, i thought it would be of some use to expose this breeder and we ask no one to buy dogs from these kennels, but to help close them,, i am sorry that at present i can not disclose any more facts but it could affect the out come in court, and you must all understand this, my aim at present is to expose this breeder to the public and to make them aware of the health and conditions of these dogs, you have seen photos of dogs that were taken at dog shows and comments have been made on this web site about the dogs before, it is sad that you say give us evidence or say nothing at all, as it raises doughts,, do these photos i show leave anyone on this web site with any doughts that the dogs are living in terrible conditions, does it leave anyone with any doughts that these dogs are under weight, and does it leave anyone with any doughts that this breeder should not be allowed to own any dogs at all,, i think not, yes anyone can write on this site, the photos are not words they are evidence, and the same photos are with the authorities, they tell no lies at all,, so why would anyone dought what i say, i give you all evidence in the photos, as i said before the rest will follow and as soon as i know so will everyone else, regards paul

[Mirkawolf]

Envoyé par pacino

it will all become clear very soon, i put this on the forum because the time was right and i want to make it clear, I and others want this breeder to be brought to justice,

I hope, that you have carefully collected and saved all the hard evidence for your upcomming battle, before you made this public and that the time is really right. Because otherwise it can happen, that at the moment when police or veterinary control or other responsible officers enter the kennels, they will find them spotlessly clean, repared and fitted with all possible and impossible equipment, because with this topic you just gave the breeder excellent warning.

I agree with Ina, unfortunatelly, that I have never heard anything positive about de Louba Tar kennel, and the Louba Tar dogs, that I have met personally, were all shy and very, very skinny. However, according to the breeder they were apparently at show condition, because she seemed very proud of them..

[solowolf]

Envoyé par Mirkawolf

I hope, that you have carefully collected and saved all the hard evidence for your upcomming battle, before you made this public and that the time is really right. Because otherwise it can happen, that at the moment when police or veterinary control or other responsible officers enter the kennels, they will find them spotlessly clean, repared and fitted with all possible and impossible equipment, because with this topic you just gave the breeder excellent warning.

I agree with Ina, unfortunatelly, that I have never heard anything positive about de Louba Tar kennel, and the Louba Tar dogs, that I have met personally, were all shy and very, very skinny. However, according to the breeder they were apparently at show condition, because she seemed very proud of them..

hi , yes all the evidence is complete , the conditions is only one part of the evidence, and if the kennels were cleaned up it would not matter at all, in fact i hope the breeder is out there right now cleaning them,,, if you took a dog to a dog show n uk that looked like one from this kennel you would be arrested by the police or dog warden for cruelty to an animal,, you can not as one person give any time to your dogs when you own over 100 dogs, if i was at the kennel by myself i would start at 7:00 by the time i cleaned out the kennels and pens, cleaned the food bowls, changed the water. feed the dogs, cleaned out the bitchs with pups, fed the pups, changed the dogs round into the outside compounds it was 11:00 at night i would not stop for lunch or dinner, when finnished i would eat and wash then bed, 16 hrs flat out,, to get to know a dog here you would have to take it to bed with you,, it was not so bad when the 3 of us were working i then had time to take some dogs to the excercise area were i enjoyed many happy hours with the dogs, this was of coarse when the long summer nights were in, the winter in Ardense is very cold, we recorded wind chill of -34 you had to leave the hose pipe running while cleaning or it would freeze in less than 10 minutes, so for thin dogs it was very hard time, by the way not all dogs get thin from not being feed correct, some dogs get very frustrated being in kennel all day and bounce of the walls especially czechs,,, kennel mad,, regards paul

[farena]

I´m goint to answer to michaelundinaeichhorn. I think that the conditions in which this animals are living are horrible. But for me is not so important that they are mixed with shaarloos, or another kind of dog. For me the most important is the bad condittions they are living in. Inma.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Envoyé par farena

I´m goint to answer to michaelundinaeichhorn. I think that the conditions in which this animals are living are horrible. But for me is not so important that they are mixed with shaarloos, or another kind of dog. For me the most important is the bad condittions they are living in. Inma.

I agree with you that if those conditions are this horrible it is of first priority that they get help. But this would be just one more case of abused dogs (what is one too many) but if the CSW are not purebred but mixed with Saarloos there are a lot of countries with a huge problem - they have based a lot of breeding on dogs that may host hereditary problems we didn´t know before and different to Saaloos mixed with CSW this will cause more health problems than before, apart from untypical dogs. This would be a long term problem and Germany is the only country that made every-year eye tests obligatory. What means it is till now the only country that will recognise heriditary eye-problems in an early state - but we don´t have any dogs out of these lines in breeding till today and no breeder here would use those dogs.
Those genes seem to be recesiv, what means they can be carried and spread over several generations till they happen to get obvious. For the breed this is of much greater importance than even 109 abused dogs - if they are living under such horrible conditions, what we don´t know for sure till now.

Ina

[Boelie]

Besides, you defend the French breeder... Fine, but two things surprise me:
First: you don't seem to worry about the welfare of de Louba Tar dogs. How would you feel IF it turns out that Paul was right and he (and others involved) will win the case in court (or whatever they plan) What will your reaction be IF Paul manages to proove that the dogs were kept in terrible conditions? Will you still defend the breeder and attack Paul? Or will you apologise him? Remember, we're talking here about living creatures. It's not an academic discussion!

Mind you: I'm not saying that this will happen for sure, but wouldn't it be wiser to withhold your judgements before you and we all learn more about the case and Paul's 'action' is brought out to the public?

Secondly: you accuse Paul of hypocrisy, bad intentions, hidden agenda, call him names while in fact we don't know where the truth lies. Your attitude and blind defence is weird to me and makes me wonder what YOUR intentions are? National loyalty or common interests with the breeder? Are you aware that you're risking your own reputation? If she loses the case you'll be disregarded by the majority of CSV owners community, not only in France.

And I wonder.... How would you all feel if Paul was wrong....?
Will the disregarded members of the CSV owners community start their own splinter-group? With Paul as their leader?
Please, people, start thinking for yourselves and try not to judge anyone becouse ONE person accuses another...
I have read this topic with growing amazement about how easily all you people (some exceptions offcourse) judge and get emotional about a place you have NEVER been, owned by a lady you have NEVER met or talked to.
Let this Paul fight his own fight with Mrs. Keizer and give your spicy opinions only when you know ALL the facts. Try to hear both sides of this story. Be a little bit more like your intelligent WOLFDOGS and follow your own judgements, you own eyes and your own ears, instead of following the one that makes the most noise... stop behaving like SHEEP...

[solowolf]

Envoyé par Boelie

And I wonder.... How would you all feel if Paul was wrong....?
Will the disregarded members of the CSV owners community start their own splinter-group? With Paul as their leader?
Please, people, start thinking for yourselves and try not to judge anyone becouse ONE person accuses another...
I have read this topic with growing amazement about how easily all you people (some exceptions offcourse) judge and get emotional about a place you have NEVER been, owned by a lady you have NEVER met or talked to.
Let this Paul fight his own fight with Mrs. Keizer and give your spicy opinions only when you know ALL the facts. Try to hear both sides of this story. Be a little bit more like your intelligent WOLFDOGS and follow your own judgements, you own eyes and your own ears, instead of following the one that makes the most noise... stop behaving like SHEEP...

hi Boelie, i look forward to getting your views very shortly, my fight is not just with MRS Keizer but putting the largest puppy farming ring in europe to an end, these breeders are cross breeding and causing lots of health problems in dogs, to register a cross bred dog as a pure bred dog is illegal,,, to bred from unhealthy stock knowing it carries defects that will come out in the pups is bloody mindlesness, and to sell them on to unwary customers is blatent fruad and desception, everyone is entitled to there views, so i have a question for you , if you live in france and you breed a litter of pups in france can you take them at 6 weeks old to a house in holland get them chipped register them under someone elses kennel name then bring them back to france to sell them? simple question you tell me if this is correct in europe please? regards paul

[solowolf]

Envoyé par elf

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

hi why are you surprised i made this public, are you not glad that we take action against this breeder, are you not glad that you now know the conditions the dogs have to live in, of coarse we take legal action we want it stoped for good, of coarse Mrs Keizer will be right she is a very well educated woman and very intelligent, and i did myself learn things from her, and i have been breeding dogs for 30 yrs, Mrs Keizer is very knowledgable about both the czech and saarloos breeds and i went there to learn before a took on a czechoslovakian wolfdog, this is even more reason why there is no excuse for the conditions the dogs live in, as you are phd graduate in genetics then you will know if you cross a poodle with a husky you cant call the offspring a poodle nor can you call it a husky MRS KEIZER ALSO KNOWS THIS////////

[Rona]

Thanks for your explanations, Paul. Keep us informed on developments.
Rona

[elf]

Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour).

I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled.

To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case.

Anthony

[solowolf]

Envoyé par elf

Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour).

I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled.

To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case.

Anthony

what details do you want the photos are all taken at be louba tar kennels,,, it was made public to let people see the terrible conditions, what is wrong with that, i was told i could use the photos but not disclose other information as it was protected, a rumour is hear say ,, the photos are facts on paper, and will be and have been excepted as evidence so how are they rumours please explain?? the forum is used to greate topics of interest to other dog owners, breeders or lovers, i am well within my rights to post this on the forum as i think it is a complete disgrace the living conditions of the animals, how will it end sad if these poor dogs get a better life,, i think your post is very sad,, as i have said before if anything i say is not true then MRS Keizer should get a legal representitive at once and proecute me for slander, i have already put my full name and address on this topic, i would look very forward to seeing this breeder in any court at any time.. paul

[wolfin]

Hmm, i have question.
Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future?

to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders.

but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel.