Pacino's kennel

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by pacino

hi Ina, the De louba tar comment made me and others laugh, joke with a jag, best check your dogs as well you never know where de louba tar pops up or that is, if it is de louba tar,,, i dont think you will be the one who decides on weather the hip scoring results from uk are o.k on wolfdog.org at least we send them in,,, anyone who has interest on how our hip scoring works can mail me private, we assure all on wolfdog.org we only breed from very low scores, unfortunately hip scoring does not detect dogs that carry the displasia gene, nore does it detect such factors as diet and over excercise in young dogs, all can lead to hip problems,, have a nice day,,,paul

Paul, the question is that you have use Brix Bix de Louba Tar in your breeding, how do you know that he isn't a mix?
Have you do DNA tests in he before use?

About the hip degrees I find in OFFA site the differents hip registries used in some countries, that includes UK, but being this site international and CzW a FCI breed is better change the UK registries for FCI, that means A1 or A2 as all breeders and owners do.

Originally Posted by pacino

all breedings in Europe are logged and photos taken of each mating, so you can be assured that no cross breeding takes place, we have asked kennel club of uk

Lets see...
If is for we be assured by the fotos so, this low quality photo of Brix bix De Louba Tar seems that maybe he have long ears insert at side of the head, with a curious head format, maybe because the position of this photo his body seems more a potatoe with 4 toothpick... Its really difficult made a basic evaluation of one dog with good and some photos, its simply impossible with medium/bads and only one, as we can never use photos as assurance because nobody garantee that the dog at photo is really the same dog.

Originally Posted by Pacino

we have database of all dogs in uk, we need all records kept as we still fight to get the breed recognised and hope if it is all our paperwork will be accepted by the kennel club

Too as Kane, a CzW (??) who is father of a Utonagan litter mix done in UK and sold as "czech wolfdogs" by this "breeder"?
Won't that be a problem for you and for the breed in Uk?

Greetings

Paula

[Angelika]

Paul, I had a look at your website. If I´m right Defra still refuses the CzW to be removed from the "dangerous wild animal act".

So you are breeding dogs who have to be kept in the U.K. as dangerous wild animals?

I couldn´t find photos of your CzW and pups inside your home. Do you only keep them outside?

Princesse is the mother of the third litter in the U.K.? A CzW who unfortunately could not get much socialisation when she was a pup because she always had to be hidden from Defra?

And last but not least:

you keep a timberwolf among your CzW???

Might be better to give the answers myself - with your words "funny old place the U.K."

Angelika

[annomon]

Paul, it seems that you have a changeable point of view when it becomes the breed Louba Tar. First you start a smear campain against the breeder Louba Tar, and although your pictures showed skinny dogs in a mudpool, they are not abused and beaten, so what was all your hysteria about?! There is much worse and really horrifiying animal suffering to make a stand for.

And now you openly make fun of someone who has a ligitimate question about the Louba Tar breed. There ARE serious rumours about mixes between Saarloos and CsW at Louba Tar, and you HAVE a descendent from Louba Tar with whom you breed, so maybe there is some risk with that, because in the worst case your dog could contain some Saarloos blood. You can't denie that. You talk like you are the CsW-Einstein here, but you have a funny way of showing it: using photos as proof for the breeding , your strange reaction to a normal question about your HD-results, breeding a not official recognized breed (so there is no control on keeping a high breeding standard of the CsW, like there is in the rest of western europe) ... yes, I definitely agree with Angelika!

greetings Monique

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Paul, I had a look at your website. If I´m right Defra still refuses the CzW to be removed from the "dangerous wild animal act".

So you are breeding dogs who have to be kept in the U.K. as dangerous wild animals?

I couldn´t find photos of your CzW and pups inside your home. Do you only keep them outside?

Princesse is the mother of the third litter in the U.K.? A CzW who unfortunately could not get much socialisation when she was a pup because she always had to be hidden from Defra?

And last but not least:

you keep a timberwolf among your CzW???

Might be better to give the answers myself - with your words "funny old place the U.K."

Angelika

hi yes are dogs are classified as dangerous wild animals and defra still refuse to remove them,, yes we are breeding dogs in uk classed as DWA , you can not find photos of my dogs in my home as they live in large pens outside, there excercise area is 3 acres in size, amazing how can you tell princess did not get socialised?? infact not one dog is hidden from defra, are dogs are in public all the time, openly shoen on web sites, very well socialised dogs, even been at crufts itself, and we have not complied with defra, we do not have there licence, and we are prepared to go to jail if nessesary to prove our point, are dogs live a great life and travel freely, my bitch went to holland to be mated last year, and came back to u.k,, no i keep a czech male with my timberwolf, i can run them all as a pack if i wish to do so, i used the czechs to train the wolf,, excellent,, regards paul

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Paul, I had a look at your website. If I´m right Defra still refuses the CzW to be removed from the "dangerous wild animal act".

So you are breeding dogs who have to be kept in the U.K. as dangerous wild animals?

I couldn´t find photos of your CzW and pups inside your home. Do you only keep them outside?

Princesse is the mother of the third litter in the U.K.? A CzW who unfortunately could not get much socialisation when she was a pup because she always had to be hidden from Defra?

And last but not least:

you keep a timberwolf among your CzW???

Might be better to give the answers myself - with your words "funny old place the U.K."

Angelika

HI i have just talked to club members and we have decided as we dont have pedigree dogs, we may even have cross breeds, and we have ti listen to so called experts like you, we now ask the web master to please REMOVE ALL OUR DOGS AND LINKS FROM WOLLFDOG.ORG ALL OUR PEDIGREES TO BE REMOVED AND ALL OWNERS DETAILS REMOVED AS SOON AS POSSABLE. we will keep in contact with our many friends and breeders in europe by private mail, i will also come back to forum and report all that happens in court with de louba tar kennels, mr p winder czechoslovakian wolfdog club u.k..........

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by pacino

HI i have just talked to club members and we have decided as we dont have pedigree dogs, we may even have cross breeds, and we have ti listen to so called experts like you, we now ask the web master to please REMOVE ALL OUR DOGS AND LINKS FROM WOLLFDOG.ORG ALL OUR PEDIGREES TO BE REMOVED AND ALL OWNERS DETAILS REMOVED AS SOON AS POSSABLE. we will keep in contact with our many friends and breeders in europe by private mail, i will also come back to forum and report all that happens in court with de louba tar kennels, mr p winder czechoslovakian wolfdog club u.k..........

Amazing reaction, Paul. I used nothing else but your own words: "I can assure you all my Czech puppies in UK are very safe and well out of harms the sas couldn´t find them.....as for unexpected surprises.....for fear of persecution from Defra the puppies have all been moved to secret locations....." (see www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=690 ).

Lost their mother too soon, hidden from Defra - proper socialisation of puppies indeed.

It´s not my fault when you forget your own words. - For me: end of discussion.

Angelika

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Paul, the question is that you have use Brix Bix de Louba Tar in your breeding, how do you know that he isn't a mix?
Have you do DNA tests in he before use?

About the hip degrees I find in OFFA site the differents hip registries used in some countries, that includes UK, but being this site international and CzW a FCI breed is better change the UK registries for FCI, that means A1 or A2 as all breeders and owners do.


Lets see...
If is for we be assured by the fotos so, this low quality photo of Brix bix De Louba Tar seems that maybe he have long ears insert at side of the head, with a curious head format, maybe because the position of this photo his body seems more a potatoe with 4 toothpick... Its really difficult made a basic evaluation of one dog with good and some photos, its simply impossible with medium/bads and only one, as we can never use photos as assurance because nobody garantee that the dog at photo is really the same dog.



Too as Kane, a CzW (??) who is father of a Utonagan litter mix done in UK and sold as "czech wolfdogs" by this "breeder"?
Won't that be a problem for you and for the breed in Uk?

Greetings

Paula

hi brix was bred from a dog called Donis bonus and bitch called jolly seda eminence, both dog and bitch come from reputable breeders so if you think he looks like potatoe maybe you best mail them with your comments not me, now we can ask all on wolfdog.org what percentage of all dogs on web site have dna screening done, and as you hope to own one in the future will you insist on dna tested dog before importing? you may find it very hard to get dog... its true you cant tell if dog in photo is really that dog, unless of coarse you know that dog, same as you cant tell if father on pedigree is infact the father, dna test needed,,, so you will have some problems soon yourself, there is one litter of wolfdogs on this web site born in one country and registered in another, so they have fraudulent pedigrees, even worse some oof the litter have been used in breeding,,, i have told wolfdog.org but nothing has been sent to me for explation of my letter, you also need to look at dogs registered by FCI as czech wolfdogs that in no way met breed standards, these are numerous in france and are being bred into good lines by other breeders, so there is a lot you need to look for when buying a dog, we have no problems for our breedings in uk all dogs are pure czechs youu can only breed through the club,, anything you see advertised as czechs or wolfdogs or wolf crosses are nothing to do with our club and do not appear on our records, please dont be over concerned on our breeding in uk we hope you get a czech soon, we still fight for recognition of this breed and even after 6 yrs we still fight and still have no defra licence, if you get dedicated people like our club to help you will have good friends, they ALL risk going to Jail for there dogs.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by pacino

hi brix was bred from a dog called Donis bonus and bitch called jolly seda eminence, both dog and bitch come from reputable breeders so if you think he looks like potatoe maybe you best mail them with your comments not me,

Paul, you seems to have misunderstood Paola's point. I understood (and so did others) that the matching from which Brix was born took place at de Louba Tar, and YOU yourself claimed earlier that matchings there were not reliable...

Then how can you be sure that Brix was born from the parents indicated in the papers if, accordintg to your earlier statements, breeding at de LT was lousy? Take no offence, I'm just asking in an attempt to find any logic in all that.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

Paul, you seems to have misunderstood Paola's point. I understood (and so did others) that the matching from which Brix was born took place at de Louba Tar, and YOU yourself claimed earlier that matchings there were not reliable...

Then how can you be sure that Brix was born from the parents indicated in the papers if, accordintg to your earlier statements, breeding at de LT was lousy? Take no offence, I'm just asking in an attempt to find any logic in all that.

Well, that´s at least three of us having the same questions you still didn´t answer.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Well, that´s at least three of us having the same questions you still didn´t answer.

Well, I've recieved the answer on PM. Thanks, Paul.

[nanouk]

i have bred dogs for over 34 yrs, produced the top winning akita in america 2007 and in australia 2006-07, have studied genetics and health defects in animals worked and lived with wolves for many years, and have forgotten more about dogs than some people on here know about them, but they are all intitled to there say, i have looked at lots of pictures on this site from a lot of different countries and i can see distinct differences in appearence, hight,coat,colour and temperament in this breed, and i now know of one dwarf born

wow, could you get of your high horse and find the time to answer my question? You so eloquently have written a reply but failed to answer.

Or do you really believe with 34 yrs of experience in breeding you can proof with a picture of a suposed mating that you have a purebred litter.

DNA testing is not expensive, with the SWD in Germany all dogs will be tested in the future, non german breeders are already cooperating, and in Holland it is getting more regular as well, though not with cooperation fro the RvB and mentioning of tests on pedigrees like in germany
I remember reading on the kennelclub website that they do these test as well. If you do care for maintaining and safeguarding a breed, dna testing is a much more logical step than taking pictures, and i hope more CWD owners will start doing dna test on all litters as well! (and not abuse the rather childlike excuse that when others don't do it they don't feel the need as well)

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by nanouk

wow, could you get of your high horse and find the time to answer my question? You so eloquently have written a reply but failed to answer.

Or do you really believe with 34 yrs of experience in breeding you can proof with a picture of a suposed mating that you have a purebred litter.

DNA testing is not expensive, with the SWD in Germany all dogs will be tested in the future, non german breeders are already cooperating, and in Holland it is getting more regular as well, though not with cooperation fro the RvB and mentioning of tests on pedigrees like in germany
I remember reading on the kennelclub website that they do these test as well. If you do care for maintaining and safeguarding a breed, dna testing is a much more logical step than taking pictures, and i hope more CWD owners will start doing dna test on all litters as well! (and not abuse the rather childlike excuse that when others don't do it they don't feel the need as well)

i know when and where the parents of all my dogs where bred why would i need dna test, i have proof of brix biss de louba tars breeding, i trust the person who was present and was witness, all our dogs are health checked, if we thought that the dogs we got from europe were not correct we wouldnt have bought them, all our dogs originated from europe, you must now ask corrie keizer, rob de jagger ,koos and letty de graff and Annie montines for you are asking me are there lines correct,, the litter i bred from koos and letys stud dog give me an excellent litter and i have no need to question there breedings or there lines, so why have you?? nor have i any need to question the von rijnecker hof lines, so what is wrong with these lines i need to know? also if there is anything wrong with the lines from Annie montines? all our stock came from europe if you know of a problem please contact the breeders youself, as i said before we have no problems in u.k. with our breedings,,,and i would not insult any friends in europe to send proof of there breeding via dna to me, i trust these breeders, do you really think that koos and lety would have let me use there stud dog had they not known my bitch was correct? they are very respectable breeders and good friends, and i trust them 100%,,, i am sorry i can not answer your questions on my breedings, the breeders in europe who i get my dogs from you must mail them and ask for dna test, as for me i am happy and trust them, i know the parents of brix but to keep you happy please contact corrie keizer for dna test WE WILL PAY FOR ALL VET BILLS, what more can we do to help you? send the vet bill to
mr r winder cwcuk
station farm
station road
kent
tn262dg
england..
we at the czechoslovakian wolfdog club uk are very greatful for people like you who are concerned with dogs we have bought and used from europe and now we wait in anticapation on the dna results for brix bis de louba tar
the club will also pay for any other dna test you wish done on any of our dogs from europe or dogs we have used, if the money is required up front please send amount and details and we will do immediate transfer, thank you regards mr r winder on behalf of the CWC u.k

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Rona

Well, I've recieved the answer on PM. Thanks, Paul.

hi, as you can see we have asked nanouk to contact the breeders of our founder stock and stud dogs to ask for dna tests, our club will pay for all vet bills, what more can we do to help, we trust the people in europe, who bred our dogs, we trust the people whos stud dogs we use, we used one dog who carried the de louba tar affix but is bred from dogs not of de louba tar lines, we trust the person present at matting which produced brix, we health test all our dogs, we now have premission from local councils to keep our dogs with no licence ////,, that has taken 6 yrs, we keep record of all breedings so when breed gets recognition we can have kc pedigrees, we keep photos of matings and for the benifit of NANOUK we dna all dogs,, just Nanouk never asked , but we dont need to tell all we do, when my bitch was mated in Holland Koos filled in all the proper forms and registered the mating even though the pups where born in uk. it was still done correct, for the benifit of Nanouk tomorrow i will put copy of uk kennel club registration for my first litter, it was not the clubs fault our dogs where removed as many keep reminding us about in there arrogant mails, sad some people still think its funny,,,,, so now our club give Nanouk the oppertunity to get dna tests on all dogs we bought from and used from europe, our club pays for it all, then no one has any need to question our dogs, further more any time we decide to get or use dog from europe we will of coarse give Nanouk oppertunity to get dna for us and again we pay for all, what more can our club do to help, best regards paul

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Well, that´s at least three of us having the same questions you still didn´t answer.

hi i know where brix came from and i know he is from the dog and bitch on his pedigree, but to keep you and others happy we ask nanouk to get dna test on brix who is at de louba tar kennels our club will pay for all, we know what went on at the de louba tar kennels, hence i used brix,,, we await results, paul

[Azazel]

Hi Paul,

Do you test your breeding dogs for HD?
I couln'd find any HD results here on wolfdog.org which got me a little bit curious.

[Azazel]

The reason why i'm asking is that my dog Shadow has HD-D rating which is not that great as you can imagine, and when i look at his breeding lines i see the name Brix Bis de Louba Tar come popping up.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Azazel

Hi Paul,

Do you test your breeding dogs for HD?
I couln'd find any HD results here on wolfdog.org which got me a little bit curious.

hi all our breeding dogs are tested for h/d ,they have eye test Every year is required in uk, we hip score at 2yrs of age, the dog is mature by then, some people hip score younger but our club decided 1 yr or 18 mths is not old enough, all test results can be sent if required, paul

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Azazel

Hi Paul,

Do you test your breeding dogs for HD?
I couln'd find any HD results here on wolfdog.org which got me a little bit curious.

people adding comments to this thread also have no h/d test results on wolfdog.org, all breeding dogs in u.k are h/d and eye tested. as are the stud dogs we use in europe.. paul

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by pacino

hi i know where brix came from and i know he is from the dog and bitch on his pedigree, but to keep you and others happy we ask nanouk to get dna test on brix who is at de louba tar kennels our club will pay for all, we know what went on at the de louba tar kennels, hence i used brix,,, we await results, paul

well, i am flattered that you use and remeber my name!
But i don't know why I should arrange dna testings?

I asked a simple q following on one of your statements.. (as a remimder, this one:

we keep photographic evedense of all matings

It is good to know you are doing dna testing. puzzles my why you had to make such a fuss around it, or was that all a scheme just to get your shot at getting back at a closed topic!
If you want dna testing done on dogs, you can if you have doubts, go the official way by contacting the kennelclub, which you , with all your experience should have known, and not via a privat person like myself, who is not even involved in breedclubs or anything!

Furthermore, i don't see the need of mentioning other breeders,when a q is directed to you, i did not insinuate anything, certainly did not judge your breeding, cause i have never been at your kennels or have seen your dogs other than in pictures and stoeries deliverd by others and certainly, unlike some others, won't spread unbased rumours !! What i personally do frown apon is breeding dogs without official FCI papers, same as the promise that those dogs will one day will be registered.. But that is MHO

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by nanouk

well, i am flattered that you use and remeber my name!
But i don't know why I should arrange dna testings?

I asked a simple q following on one of your statements.. (as a remimder, this one:

It is good to know you are doing dna testing. puzzles my why you had to make such a fuss around it, or was that all a scheme just to get your shot at getting back at a closed topic!
If you want dna testing done on dogs, you can if you have doubts, go the official way by contacting the kennelclub, which you , with all your experience should have known, and not via a privat person like myself, who is not even involved in breedclubs or anything!

Furthermore, i don't see the need of mentioning other breeders,when a q is directed to you, i did not insinuate anything, certainly did not judge your breeding, cause i have never been at your kennels or have seen your dogs other than in pictures and stoeries deliverd by others and certainly, unlike some others, won't spread unbased rumours !! What i personally do frown apon is breeding dogs without official FCI papers, same as the promise that those dogs will one day will be registered.. But that is MHO

how can a dog in uk have FCI papers?? as you stated we should do things as in europe, the dog brix bis de louba tar is in europe as are his parents, so our club asked you to help, as you told us that our h/d test results dont mean anything in europe, would are dna tests? i dont agree with people cross breeding saarloos but they do and the offspring have FCI PAPERWORK, so its not hard to get things past breed clubs or Fci in europe,,