Czech Mutara-Gate

[massimo]

Hi all!
In the italian forum something very peculiar happened.
Margo made some comments to Andrea Pecharova (one of the Italian Mutara Fanatics as Pavel likes to say) and Andrea replied after speaking to Monika Soukopova Directly. After a long time it was like Monika and Margo were speaking to eachother again. WOW

I think this is usefull so EVERYBODY can make their minds about what to think about this reall delicate subject for our race.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Sorry, fo such errors in my text but we are in Slovakia right now and they have here really funny keyboards...

Originally Posted by ANDREA

I don't think it's correct to suspect about an official organism like Breeding committy of Czeck club as the members are all professional technicals, genetists and not "only" breeders with a great experience with wolfdogs.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Dear Andrea, Czech breeding comittee is not an HOLY COW. They are not right in all situation. Some of them are not active anymore. Other are not experts. You say they are professionals. You want an example­? Nada Sebkova - member of breeding comitte. Number of owned CLC = 0. Number of bred CLC = 0. Activity in the club = 2 years - since she is the owner of Mutara. She has really no BASIC information about CLC.
But what is most important - even the breeding committee made of REAL professionals have NO RIGHT to include such mixes into breeding.
And last - if you want to know the opinion about such mixes made by really experienced people (allevatori con grande bagaglio d'esperienze con il Clc) - it is simple - they are against. Slovakian Club made of people which have more experienced then the whole people from Mutara club already send OFFICIAL prostest to the Czech Club...

Originally Posted by ANDREA

So they took the Canadian wolf as good JUST to see if this idea could really work (only for this). If it succeeds then there is already a Carpatian wolf ready to try the experiment as for the 4 points in the article.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Andrea, I know you have no bigger contact with Czech Club. Dont be angry but I sure your only source about what is going on during the Czech Club meetings is Monika. Right­? So small explanation - we asked the Mutara people and what you write is not true. They did not wanted to asure us they will not use them - if they will make it we will stop the prostest because I have nothing against if Mrs. Sebkova or Mr. Jedlicka OWN and BREED mixes. But I have a LOT against when they want to use such mixes to breed with CLC.
The true is only one - if some of these mixes will be HD-free they will use them for CLC breeding. You know why­? They registered this dogs as CzW.WHY­? If they would only to watch the HD they do not need to register such dogs. They just can print pedigrees at home without any authorisation from the Czech Club. It would be enough for an experiment. But they do not want an experiment. They are just missleading people like you. They want this dogs to be included in the breeing. And this is the reason why they registered the whole litter and they make the bonitation and shows. They try to fullfil the conditions of the Czech Kennel Club which are needed to REGISTER this dogs as CLC....

Originally Posted by KIKA

The German shepard is not coming from a doubtful origin, it comes from the breeders of the army were the puppies are not registred in the civil Genealogic Book (written in Hartls second article) and his descendants will be used only for scientifical goal in monitoring HD factor.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Zikika - it is a LIE. Really. Everyone from Czech Republic can show you an article from one of the most famous Czech dog magazines where Hrach - owner of Armin - writes that he has no idea about the origin or Armin. He writes he thinks in his line can be even a Malamute. He BECAME an CLC first after the registration of the Murata crossings. The people from Mutara Club had to write it in the papers because in other case they will never get an registration....
This article written by Hrach was posted by Mrs. Kaufmanove (kennel od Uhoste) on the forum on the Czech Club pages but is was removed by the members of the Czech breeding comittee. Why­? You know the answer - the were affraid because it is true....

THIS IS ANDREA/MONIKA ANSWER:
Here are some clarifications from Monika Soukupova, one of the Breeding board of Czeck club
Both Hybrids were judged in the dog show because according to the CMKU rules, the subjects which are written in the Register (the one for new races or test litters) must participate at least at 2 shows obtaining at least very good, so our initial program has changed.
Of course the better evaluation cannot be excluded as CAC but it doesn't mean anything
-What Margo wrote about Armin is really false. The list of the levels obtained is really long: ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV 2 (kind of IPO 1,2,3), ZPU - 1, ZPU -2, ZPS -1,(special track 1 -2) ZPO -1(special defence), TART 1 - 3 (kind of SCH), SPT -1, 2, 3, (special track 1 -3 Tart) OPT 1 -2 (special defence 1, 2 - Tart ). Armin is prepared for participating to the Republic defence and if he enters in the limits he can have OPT 3, special defence. He really cannot do better.
A dog with problems or without defence qualities wouldn't even be able to do OPT 1.
Margo has never seen him in her life, she didn't mention which military gave her the information and so her speaches are worth nothing.
We saw him while he was working and it was a pleasure to see him.
Armin's mother is Gerda z PS (PS è means Pohranièní stráže, boarder guard) his father comes also from PS Libìjovice ; unfortunately Hrach really doesn't know his name because when he took the puppy it was in order to make him grow up with the wolf and didn't care about anything else, he didn't know if the puppy would have survived to the wild education of the she wolf. Puppy survived and he started to work with him and he didn't loose his working attitude not even after being grown up by the wild wolf behaviour. We think that the hybrids have a very good character also because they have Armin's blood, not only because of good socialization. (those who saw the bonitation say they behaved even better than some wolfdogs that already tested bonitation before)
-Concerning HD, Dr Sterc is one of the most severe in the world, maybe it is useless but we still stay with him.
Int the last years very little quantity of CSW are A or B in CZ.
If we go to make Xrays in Poland a HDC in CZ was considered perfect A
We have various examples: some time ago I was with Mrs. Nekvasilova in poland with Qeron. I wanted to compare the results because vet said they were ok and Sterc said they were D!
We also brought Ohnivak who was HDC and doctor in poland said they were really good Xrays.
What must we think, one says a dog is healthy and another says he is ill. Who is right? Who can judge them?

However the hybrids are judged buy Sterc as A and B
Both the females are above the average of wolfdogs in CZ.
It would be stupid not to mate them and observe how things evolve.
But we don't want to observe only F2 but the development and variations from F1 to F4. this wasn't done 50 years ago because HD was not monitored.
We have the hybrids but we don't have the conditions of the Boarder Guards. This is the difference, but at least we have the register at CMKU. It's importatn to know that the genealogic book
is at the ÈKS ( Èeský kynologicky svaz ).
The two books are separate. To monitor the F1-F4 hybrids is and will be difficult, without economical income and without future.
The people that allowed us to participate to this study know and it is difficult to find others.

We are not Boarder Guards, when a soldier received a dog he shoud prove what he could do without comments. It's impossible to abuse of the actual hybrids.
They are not a menace for anyone and for real CSW lovers as an insurance for this Ing. Hartl's name should be enough, he created the breed.
-It's not true that I made bonitation alone. Ing. Hartl was with me, he was key person and without him they could not be selected. Other present people were Ing. P. Laufkova as member of Club. other people not from club were present (even Andrea that is writing)
-Why do Hybrids provocate so much hatred, they are not an illness.
- For what artificial insemination is concerned, if you manage to take sperma from wolf, documentating the thing, please let us know...instead, inseminating the shewolf, who will let us? ZOO? Zoo obviously could not accept. Even if they would, we should do it under narcotics. But it's easy that the dog would be stressed and not be pregnant. We took in consideration all variants, but to do something is not so easy as to write them. Simply when Hrach informed us about the litter (both subjects corresponded generally to our request to monitor HD) we took the occasion, there is nothing else under that.

FOR MARGO FROM ANDREA
It seems to me that you appreciate a lot the work from Slovaks but why do you think if they worked so well (i have nothing against slovaks) why has thei puppy production decreased so drastically?)
I tried to express my opinion always writing the origins of my information, i tried to translate from Czeck to italian what I thought was important, specifying were my information came from, not like you, you said you read on a paper but don't remember the name, you say you remember that Armin is not pureblood, don't make me laugh, specify well the names were you get your informations, only this way you can be believable.