2 CSV Puppies help

neesk · 11-03-2008, 23:21

Heya,

wow, this is freaky - I am in a very similar boat to you, in some ways. I also have 2 new CSV puppies, and a toddler (who is just about to turn 3), and am having some trouble with the puppies.

People really are not exagerating when they say that CSV puppies are challenging. I have dealt with a few puppies in my time, even with more than one at a time (there have been a few breeders in my family, and several breeders as family friends, over the years). Also, my wife's family was involved in husky sled racing when she was young (though she has less experience with dogs than I do).

That said, with that experience behind me, I have never had or even heard of dogs which were this tough to deal with. Honestly, it is sometimes difficult to decide whether they are just to stupid to understand what is expected of them, or they have no respect for pack authority (which I doubt).

My puppies are 9 weeks old, and I have only had them for 5 days, but progress is painfully slow. With any other dog I've ever had to deal with, I would not be expecting after 5 days for the puppies to still not understand where thier food is (and what things are not food, like stones). I would also expect (from day one really) that a dog should understand that being corrected means that something is a bad idea. Obviously, I would expect them to try again the minute your back is turned - but these two pups with just keep going, endlessly sometimes, back to do what ever they have been told not to, as if you have never bothered to correct them at all!

So, my pups eat plants, poo, stones, paper, and almost anything else they can find. They fight a fair amount (mostly playing, but far more aggressivly than I would like), and will not even pause when corrected, however harshly. They are terrified of just about everything, so much so that taking them outside to pee is useless if someone walks past, because they will just start climbing the door to get back in and whining, and cannot be convinced to settle down.

They are, however, very good at taking pills (which they both need, as one of them arrived with a scratch and lump on her nose, and the other came with diahorrea and an infected sore on his lip caused by a slightly squint tooth).

So, ignoring, for the moment, the remarkably negative-seeming feedback so far (though some of it is definatly useful to a new owner), can anyone tell me if this is *really* 'normal' for CSV pups? And does anyone have any 'magic-bullet' fixes?

Or, for that matter, any more useful tips?

How, for example, did you all discipline your pups when they were young? What type of correction did you find works best for teaching them boundries? What did you find was the best way of rewarding good behaviour (ours don't seem that food motivated)?

TIA folks!

-Malgor

roo · 12-03-2008, 01:55

neesk,

I wish you all the best as you definitely have your hands full. Yes, as puppies the CSV can be very challenging. I am by no means an expert, but have or am in the process of raising a year-old+ CSV puppy in the United States myself. I experienced many of the same challenges as you have described (albeit with only one puppy), but worked my way through it with a lot of patience, a lot of repetition, and a lot of continuity. Yes, these puppies can be much different than your regular dog breed. These dogs seem to do EVERYTHING - both good and bad - at full speed, with full determination, and with more gusto than you've probably ever experienced. The good will begin to outweigh the bad over time with proper training and raising.

Although it can be different with every CSV dog, I would not equate difficulties in potty training to stupidity - quite the contrary, these dogs in my opinion have the potential to be much more intelligent and much more innovative "problem solvers" than other breeds. I believe that that are much more independent in their thought and "learn" or "think" differently than other more common U.S. breeds that you may be accustomed to. The potty-training also came much slower with my CSV, and we found that repetative crate training worked best in the beginning.

As for eating everything, yes - they will. Hopefully things will settle down once you find an acceptable puppy food for them and get them on a regular schedule. However, don't expect them to not continue to try and eat (or at least mouth) just about everything.

The jumping is natural and normal in the beginning. It is their way of getting attention and saying "Hey, play with me - give me comfort, give me reassurance, NOW!". However, this behavior must be highly discouraged, ESPECIALLY with young children, as it can easily develop into very bad situations later. In the beginning I would suggest trying to not mix the puppies and young kids, if possible, until you have a better handle on the situation. Not to suggest that they are dangerous in any way, it is just better for a large person to teach them and continually reinforce what is acceptable and what is not. How to do this, you ask? Again, you have to find what works best for each individual dog. I found that with my puppy, initially turning my back to the jumping up, followed by a stern NO!, followed by a session of "time-out" alone time where she was isolated in her kennel, away from all attention for several minutes became quite effective. Did it work like magic after the first time? No - it took numerous, countless repetitions - so much so that it became a routine - but eventually it worked quite well. The jumping up - in my opinion - is seeking attention. If you do not feed into that and actually give them the opposite, they will eventually learn that jumping up does not bring them the results they desire. However, be sure to give them extra attention and praise when they are not jumping up.

One of the first commands and most essential to me was to get the "Sit" down pact. This command has proven to be the base and cornerstone for all future training and has helped to eliminate or at least cease other unwanted behaviors in the beginning. Earlier I mentioned their "problem-solving" skills. With two puppies, you'll probably experience very soon that those problem-solving skills can be quite challenging to overcome as they will be into EVERYTHING, chew ANYTHING, and try to go EVERYWHERE. If they see something they want, they will continue and continue to go for it until they accomplish their goal, whether that's see how long it takes to shred that tennis shoe or climb that barricade and go exploring. Where most dogs would give up, these will keep going and going... They have an amazing drive - you just have to channel it into positive things and behaviors or it can become very challenging.

Please feel free to pm me and I'll be happy to answer any of your questions on what worked and what didn't work with my first year experience. These dogs are much more challenging at first, but they are much more rewarding in the end as well. You'll find this forum to be the foremost source for CSV expertise - don't be afraid to search the forums and past postings for answers or ask any of the members here. As you have already had a couple of responses, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience that can be gained by asking this forums members - almost all of whom have much more knowledge and experience than I will ever have.

Good luck, and I hope you get at least a few hours of sleep tonight with two CSV puppies at the house!

- Robert

Kat · 12-03-2008, 02:21

Hi Neesk,

I agree with everyone that has posted. It is very difficult to raise 1 puppy let alone 2. I have sent you an email as well. It takes a lot of patience and time to raise a well rounded wolfdog and you have to be completely dedicated to this. Feel free to e-mail with any questions that you have and if there is anything I can do to help you, please let me know.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-03-2008, 10:28

Hi Malgor,

the only useful tip I can give you as a dog trainer and breeder of CSW's for 12 years now is to give at least one, if not both puppies back to the breeder
( personal note: what responsible breeder sells two puppies out of one litter to a person with a 3 year old child and no experience with CSW's? ).
As soon as possible.
Who's the breeder by the way, as the puppies seem although not in a healthy condition and not properly socialized.
Sorry for that answer, but as you made already the experience, CSW's are quite challenging and it will get worse under the circumstances they will be brought up, as pack within the pack.
This is a real bad example as CSW's can be, but the majority of the dogs are not like that if they live in an environment they fit in, come from a breeder who socializes the puppies and chooses the right parents for a litter.
And if they are healthy of course.
Good luck with your dogs and you decisions.

Michael

12-03-2008, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

and breeder of CSW's for 12 years now

Breeder of CSW's for 12 years...
Are you sure?

GalomyOak · 12-03-2008, 21:37

In thinking about feeding, we have had great success with our dogs (and also so far, our wolfdog) by using Merrick dog food (dry and wet), which is based almost entirely upon meat and bone, and natural fruits and vegetables - and never any corn or gluten. We also supplement our dogs with raw bones, fresh meat, and green tripe. Their feces are minimal, with very little smell, and coats and bodies are healthy and beautiful. Our dogs are also full of energy. The dogs love their food - and the ingredients are human grade. I've considered trying them, they look very tasty, with bison, pheasant, duck, and chicken!

The food isn't really any cheaper than BARF (although, our pet store gives us a discount), but it is a bit more convenient, and certainly much healthier than foods made with corn and gluten.

www.merrickpetcare.com

Chew toys are also essential - puppy safe, and always under supervision - we usually find that when our puppy starts mouthing something, she is in the mood to chew - after we tell her no, we immediately give her one of her own toys, which she will be content to chew on for quite some time. We usually seperate our dogs when chew toys are out, just so there is no disagreements, especially between our CSW and GSD.

I truly hope you are able to resolve this issue.

Mirkawolf · 12-03-2008, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malgor

Heya,

So, ignoring, for the moment, the remarkably negative-seeming feedback so far (though some of it is definatly useful to a new owner), can anyone tell me if this is *really* 'normal' for CSV pups? And does anyone have any 'magic-bullet' fixes?

Or, for that matter, any more useful tips?

-Malgor

I am sorry, that you see the feedback as negative. Unfortunatelly, we know what we are talking about. I´ve had CSW at home for more than 12 years now, raised a litter of pups, been to numerous wolfdog events and I know many CSW owners.
As Michael rightly mentions, breeder who sells two pups to inexperienced owner is totally irresponsible. We had a case like that here in Belgium - local breeder sold two pups from the same litter to a guy with no experience with wolfdog - for extra price.

Later, the two pups formed pack together and they totally disrespected the owners. Breeder shut his door and stopped responding. The two dogs grew up into shy-aggressive, non managed dogs, which the owner then walked at midnight as to avoid trouble. Once the dogs escaped and one of them killed a small bichon - in result (and to keep the story short), one was euthanised and the other one was saved from euthanasia only by quick transport out of the country.
So if you do not want to end up like this, please listen to us.

Problem with little CSW pups is not only the fact that they eat everything, go everywhere and chew everything. Problem is, that it is extremelly difficult to socialise them well - make sure they are not affraid of things. This demands a lot of time and patience with one puppy, and is extremelly hard with two pups, because to do it correctly, you have to walk them individually and not always together. If you do not do this socialisation, the pups will indeed be affraid of everything and it will not get better with time, only worse. Eventually they will end up being shy-aggressive - biting from fear.

So no, there is no quick solution and there is no miracle going to happen. Best for you and the pups would be to return them to the breeder, or at least returning one of them and concentrate on proper raising of the remaining pup. However, with a toddler and lack of experience, it still could end up in trouble.

Btw., my personal opinion is that the breeder who sold you the pups should have provided you with all informations and support, stay in touch and help you out. Not to mention he should have never sold you two pups at the same time. Makes me think the "breeder" is a mere puppy producer making money on inexperienced people.

Rona · 12-03-2008, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malgor

wow, this is freaky - I am in a very similar boat to you, in some ways. I also have 2 new CSV puppies, and a toddler (who is just about to turn 3), and am having some trouble with the puppies.

It seems the new policy of the British breeders is to sell CSV pups in sets of two...

11-03-2008, 23:21	#1
neesk Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5	Heya, wow, this is freaky - I am in a very similar boat to you, in some ways. I also have 2 new CSV puppies, and a toddler (who is just about to turn 3), and am having some trouble with the puppies. People really are not exagerating when they say that CSV puppies are challenging. I have dealt with a few puppies in my time, even with more than one at a time (there have been a few breeders in my family, and several breeders as family friends, over the years). Also, my wife's family was involved in husky sled racing when she was young (though she has less experience with dogs than I do). That said, with that experience behind me, I have never had or even heard of dogs which were this tough to deal with. Honestly, it is sometimes difficult to decide whether they are just to stupid to understand what is expected of them, or they have no respect for pack authority (which I doubt). My puppies are 9 weeks old, and I have only had them for 5 days, but progress is painfully slow. With any other dog I've ever had to deal with, I would not be expecting after 5 days for the puppies to still not understand where thier food is (and what things are not food, like stones). I would also expect (from day one really) that a dog should understand that being corrected means that something is a bad idea. Obviously, I would expect them to try again the minute your back is turned - but these two pups with just keep going, endlessly sometimes, back to do what ever they have been told not to, as if you have never bothered to correct them at all! So, my pups eat plants, poo, stones, paper, and almost anything else they can find. They fight a fair amount (mostly playing, but far more aggressivly than I would like), and will not even pause when corrected, however harshly. They are terrified of just about everything, so much so that taking them outside to pee is useless if someone walks past, because they will just start climbing the door to get back in and whining, and cannot be convinced to settle down. They are, however, very good at taking pills (which they both need, as one of them arrived with a scratch and lump on her nose, and the other came with diahorrea and an infected sore on his lip caused by a slightly squint tooth). So, ignoring, for the moment, the remarkably negative-seeming feedback so far (though some of it is definatly useful to a new owner), can anyone tell me if this is really 'normal' for CSV pups? And does anyone have any 'magic-bullet' fixes? Or, for that matter, any more useful tips? How, for example, did you all discipline your pups when they were young? What type of correction did you find works best for teaching them boundries? What did you find was the best way of rewarding good behaviour (ours don't seem that food motivated)? TIA folks! -Malgor

12-03-2008, 01:55	#2
roo Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lousiana Posts: 21	neesk, I wish you all the best as you definitely have your hands full. Yes, as puppies the CSV can be very challenging. I am by no means an expert, but have or am in the process of raising a year-old+ CSV puppy in the United States myself. I experienced many of the same challenges as you have described (albeit with only one puppy), but worked my way through it with a lot of patience, a lot of repetition, and a lot of continuity. Yes, these puppies can be much different than your regular dog breed. These dogs seem to do EVERYTHING - both good and bad - at full speed, with full determination, and with more gusto than you've probably ever experienced. The good will begin to outweigh the bad over time with proper training and raising. Although it can be different with every CSV dog, I would not equate difficulties in potty training to stupidity - quite the contrary, these dogs in my opinion have the potential to be much more intelligent and much more innovative "problem solvers" than other breeds. I believe that that are much more independent in their thought and "learn" or "think" differently than other more common U.S. breeds that you may be accustomed to. The potty-training also came much slower with my CSV, and we found that repetative crate training worked best in the beginning. As for eating everything, yes - they will. Hopefully things will settle down once you find an acceptable puppy food for them and get them on a regular schedule. However, don't expect them to not continue to try and eat (or at least mouth) just about everything. The jumping is natural and normal in the beginning. It is their way of getting attention and saying "Hey, play with me - give me comfort, give me reassurance, NOW!". However, this behavior must be highly discouraged, ESPECIALLY with young children, as it can easily develop into very bad situations later. In the beginning I would suggest trying to not mix the puppies and young kids, if possible, until you have a better handle on the situation. Not to suggest that they are dangerous in any way, it is just better for a large person to teach them and continually reinforce what is acceptable and what is not. How to do this, you ask? Again, you have to find what works best for each individual dog. I found that with my puppy, initially turning my back to the jumping up, followed by a stern NO!, followed by a session of "time-out" alone time where she was isolated in her kennel, away from all attention for several minutes became quite effective. Did it work like magic after the first time? No - it took numerous, countless repetitions - so much so that it became a routine - but eventually it worked quite well. The jumping up - in my opinion - is seeking attention. If you do not feed into that and actually give them the opposite, they will eventually learn that jumping up does not bring them the results they desire. However, be sure to give them extra attention and praise when they are not jumping up. One of the first commands and most essential to me was to get the "Sit" down pact. This command has proven to be the base and cornerstone for all future training and has helped to eliminate or at least cease other unwanted behaviors in the beginning. Earlier I mentioned their "problem-solving" skills. With two puppies, you'll probably experience very soon that those problem-solving skills can be quite challenging to overcome as they will be into EVERYTHING, chew ANYTHING, and try to go EVERYWHERE. If they see something they want, they will continue and continue to go for it until they accomplish their goal, whether that's see how long it takes to shred that tennis shoe or climb that barricade and go exploring. Where most dogs would give up, these will keep going and going... They have an amazing drive - you just have to channel it into positive things and behaviors or it can become very challenging. Please feel free to pm me and I'll be happy to answer any of your questions on what worked and what didn't work with my first year experience. These dogs are much more challenging at first, but they are much more rewarding in the end as well. You'll find this forum to be the foremost source for CSV expertise - don't be afraid to search the forums and past postings for answers or ask any of the members here. As you have already had a couple of responses, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience that can be gained by asking this forums members - almost all of whom have much more knowledge and experience than I will ever have. Good luck, and I hope you get at least a few hours of sleep tonight with two CSV puppies at the house! - Robert

12-03-2008, 02:21	#3
Kat Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 29	Hi Neesk, I agree with everyone that has posted. It is very difficult to raise 1 puppy let alone 2. I have sent you an email as well. It takes a lot of patience and time to raise a well rounded wolfdog and you have to be completely dedicated to this. Feel free to e-mail with any questions that you have and if there is anything I can do to help you, please let me know.

12-03-2008, 10:28	#4
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Hi Malgor, the only useful tip I can give you as a dog trainer and breeder of CSW's for 12 years now is to give at least one, if not both puppies back to the breeder ( personal note: what responsible breeder sells two puppies out of one litter to a person with a 3 year old child and no experience with CSW's? ). As soon as possible. Who's the breeder by the way, as the puppies seem although not in a healthy condition and not properly socialized. Sorry for that answer, but as you made already the experience, CSW's are quite challenging and it will get worse under the circumstances they will be brought up, as pack within the pack. This is a real bad example as CSW's can be, but the majority of the dogs are not like that if they live in an environment they fit in, come from a breeder who socializes the puppies and chooses the right parents for a litter. And if they are healthy of course. Good luck with your dogs and you decisions. Michael

12-03-2008, 21:37	#6
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	In thinking about feeding, we have had great success with our dogs (and also so far, our wolfdog) by using Merrick dog food (dry and wet), which is based almost entirely upon meat and bone, and natural fruits and vegetables - and never any corn or gluten. We also supplement our dogs with raw bones, fresh meat, and green tripe. Their feces are minimal, with very little smell, and coats and bodies are healthy and beautiful. Our dogs are also full of energy. The dogs love their food - and the ingredients are human grade. I've considered trying them, they look very tasty, with bison, pheasant, duck, and chicken! The food isn't really any cheaper than BARF (although, our pet store gives us a discount), but it is a bit more convenient, and certainly much healthier than foods made with corn and gluten. www.merrickpetcare.com Chew toys are also essential - puppy safe, and always under supervision - we usually find that when our puppy starts mouthing something, she is in the mood to chew - after we tell her no, we immediately give her one of her own toys, which she will be content to chew on for quite some time. We usually seperate our dogs when chew toys are out, just so there is no disagreements, especially between our CSW and GSD. I truly hope you are able to resolve this issue.