Breed Character

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello RONA: I think, you don´t know "black part" of history of the breed.

I only heard the "soft version" of the story, i.e. that CSV worked on the borders on their own, but only stopped the refugees without hurting them.

Originally Posted by Hanka

But what was good-army did first selection for work character. Present breeders must continue, if we want have working breed.

Hanka, be realistic : how many civilian CSV owners need their dog to truly work with? How many of them have enough time and energy to spend on training and working that would be comparable with the military conditions? I suppose only a very small fraction of the whole population. You can't now expect CSV to be a "working breed" in the same sense as it was used in Czechoslovakian Army!

I think Michael is 100% right. Most owners use their dogs for sport and fun events (running, exams taking, tracking competitions etc.) and still it is better than nothing or just taking them to dog shows and collecting titles in order to claim more for the pups. CSV were designed and developed as a working breed and depriving the dogs of even the substitute of "working opportunities" would probably lead in the long run to degeneration of the true character of the breed.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Not like in "some states". It is very sad for breeders in Czech, Slovakia, when we see wolfogs with tail under stomach in showrings. It is not WOLFDOG. It is parody to working breed. And titles from shows? They are NOTHING.

I don’t agree. I think there are honest and responsible and lousy breeders and owners in every country where CSV are bred and owned. It’s not a matter of a state, but rather of the owner’s character and values and the relationship between him and his dog.

As far as bonitation is concerned I wouldn’t mythologize it either - I met dogs with fantastic bonitation codes, which I wouldn’t even dare to touch, and some without bonitation, or worse bonitation codes but with pleasant character and of friendly and predictable behaviour – neither shy, nor aggressive, who had nice pups of equally good character.

I personally think (I know that many of you will disagree, but I have the right to my own opinion, especially that I’m not a breeder) that there are lots of different types of good character among CSVs and applying one model of desired reactions makes no sense. Maybe it had in the millitary kennel but not now, when the dogs live in very versatile conditions and have very diffreent life paths. What’s more - a CSV used in dogotherapy should not even react in the same way as a guarding CSV or the one trained for OB! It depends what you use the dog for and what you expect from him. It's just a matter of common sense, nothing more. Personally I don’t believe in bonitations as anything more than the true info code describing the dog’s size and physical appearance!

Still I agree that it would be a great shame and waste if CSV were turned into shy dog shows stars only and their characters and natural working abilities were totally neglected and lost.

But coming back to the main topic of the thread: I’m against using CSV to work like they used to work in the military kennels without giving them the same training opportunities first. I consider this dangerous. Thanks Hanka, in a way you confirmed my point of view

[Hanka]

Oh- so long article for my bad english....
Of course, I am not idealist about common breeding and future of breed.
For me is bad, when only one criterium for breeding is beauty....Brrrr.
You are right, not much owners work very hardly. But good is mushing, agility and other sports. Important is- this breed must have to future character for it...If no, it will be bad for breed....If they will run in the showrings, character wil go down and down......What will be with character of breed 10-15 years later? I am worry about west Evropa, where are dogs for shows only. (Of course not all owners, like not 100% owners work with dogs here).
And don´t be worry- we don´t kill people here already by dogs.
It was FUUUUJ

[mijke]

Although this discussion become a bit of topic, I think it is a very interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by Hanka

For me is bad, when only one criterium for breeding is beauty....Brrrr.

I agree for 100% with Hanka! For a lot of breeds this criterion is/was a disaster

Originally Posted by Hanka

You are right, not much owners work very hardly. But good is mushing, agility and other sports. Important is- this breed must have to future character for it...If no, it will be bad for breed....If they will run in the showrings, character wil go down and down......What will be with character of breed 10-15 years later?

Every breed was bred for a certain purpose and breeding dogs were selected for the capability’s for this purpose. When breeders forget what these capability’s are and are only selecting breeding dogs for exterior it is very bad for every breed!
I know a CsW is not a kind of working breed like a GSD, Malinois , Belgium shepherds aso. But CsW’s have also working capability’s and they like to do a lot of things.
That’s why I am glad when people do “something” (sport or training) with their CsW, so they use the capability’s of their dog and good (according the standard)CsW’s also like this

Originally Posted by Hanka

I am worry about west Europe, where are dogs for shows only. (Of course not all owners, like not 100% owners work with dogs here).

Glad you are realistic, because not all owners and breeders of CsW in West Europe are only “show people”!
But I understand what you are meaning. It worries me also that sometimes CsW’s get excellent results in shows while they behave like a shy Saarloos in the showring. In east Europe I did also see shy CsW’s with tail under the belly, but they do not get excellent results in shows....

And although this is also a bit of topic:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

One word to the bonitation.
I agree absolutely with you that it is necessary (fortunately we have the opportunity to do this twice a year in Germany), but the character test is highly trainable and I saw quite a lot CSW's in your country, passing the test, but not being able to cope with things of the daily routine, like standing within a crowd of people. Tail up to the chin. But that's another topic.

For me this is also very interesting, and I agree with Michael

Best regards,
Mijke

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by mijke

Glad you are realistic, because not all owners and breeders of CsW in West Europe are only “show people”!
But I understand what you are meaning. It worries me also that sometimes CsW’s get excellent results in shows while they behave like a shy Saarloos in the showring. In east Europe I did also see shy CsW’s with tail under the belly, but they do not get excellent results in shows....



Best regards,
Mijke

Though I absolutely agree with all of you, I would like to remark just one thing, I know several wolfsdogs that are far away from being shy but have their tails down in the showring (though not up to their nose) because they just don´t like the situation and show discomfort but not fear with that behaviour. Wolfdogs have a much more impressive bodylanguage than other breeds and I made the experience that some of them seem to show fear when they just don´t like the situation. In my experience there are dogs that love shows and dogs that hate them, the last I can understand very well because after a whole day on a big dogshow I am pretty fed up with all the crowds and noise and would without any doubt carry my tail down if I had one

[mijke]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Though I absolutely agree with all of you, I would like to remark just one thing, I know several wolfsdogs that are far away from being shy but have their tails down in the showring (though not up to their nose) because they just don´t like the situation and show discomfort but not fear with that behaviour. Wolfdogs have a much more impressive bodylanguage than other breeds and I made the experience that some of them seem to show fear when they just don´t like the situation. In my experience there are dogs that love shows and dogs that hate them, the last I can understand very well because after a whole day on a big dogshow I am pretty fed up with all the crowds and noise and would without any doubt carry my tail down if I had one

Hi Michael,

It was just a general example to illustrate that CsW with such shy behaviour in west European countries can get Excellent on shows..
I am well experienced enough to see if a dog behave like this because they don’t like the situation (other breeds can do the same), or if they are really shy and afraid. And I did mention the last kind of behaviour.

I also know when a owner is not a real alpha for a dog, a dog can behave like this in show or other new situations (where they feel uncomfortable).

I know owners who have problems in daily life with the dominance of their dog for example to other dogs (the owners have to less control and the dog can manage what he wants)
I did see the same people on the first time on show where the same dogs were walking with tail under their belly, the dogs did behave very shy when they were touched and it was not possible to show their teeth.

These owners did not understand at all that this behaviour has in basic to do with the same problems they did have at home with dominance. They do not realise that when they are a real alpha, these dogs do not need to solve all the things by their selves.

And I think this kind of real pack leader things are also a problem in West Europe, why CsW’s shows insecure and shy behaviour.

Mijke

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by mijke

And I think this kind of real pack leader things are also a problem in West Europe, why CsW’s shows insecure and shy behaviour.
Mijke

This off topic discussion is becomming more interesting, than the original topic itself

As a Czech living abroad, I want to share my thoughts on what Mijke said. I noticed on the many events for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs (shows, bonitation etc.) organised here in Belgium, people often do not communicate with their dogs, apart of commands and they seldom praise them (both by words or with food treats). (Please note, by "people" I definatelly do not mean only Belgians).

For me, this is very strange and I believe this also creates rather big part of the problem of shy or unsure dogs.

If the dog does not get told, when its doing well or bad, does not get praised for doing well - then how is he supposed to know the difference? And also, what kind of relationship it can have with his master, if all he hears are only commands?

Perhaps I am wrong, and people talk more to their dogs, when they are in privacy, at home and nobody sees them. But they should know, that it is very important to talk to their dogs and praise them, even if they are in public! Because for the dogs it is especially important to be praised or talked to, when he is in place he does not know and maybe does not feel secure.

I do talk to my dogs all the time. When we are on a walk, when we are at home, when we train, or when we wait at the veterinarian, it does not matter. My dogs understand many words, that are not commands - because I say them always in the same situation and the same way - so they learned to connect them with events that are happening or will happen. But what matters most, is the communication itself - the fact that I am actively paying them attention and they can respond and react.
I do not leave for a walk without treats, and I keep praising and giving treats, even if my older dog is already 9 years old and she "should" obey without treats. It makes her happy and smiling to be praised like a puppy, so why not to do it.

Another thing is, that really very few people here will do something (anything) with their dog. Many of them got told by the breeder (sad, but true) that there is nothing you can actually do with CSW! But again, if the dog and its master do something together and the dog gets praised for doing well, then their relationship is much better and the dog follows and obeys much more happily. Also the master gains more trust from the dog.
It does not matter if it is agility, dog trekking, biking, obedience or tracking, what matters is that they spend the time actively together.

Unfortunatelly, often I saw here, that "actively together" meant for many people (not neccessarily Belgians, again) bringing the dog to the place, taking him out of the car only for the obedience, working with him - only commands, no talk, no praising and usually no treats) and then the dog goes back to the car where it stays for rest of the event, till they go home... So - socialisation on such event - almost zero. Activity with the owner and improving relationship - rather zero again. The only effect is that the dog gets really psychically tired from this, but if it learned something positive, that is hard to say.

So please people out there, do talk to your dogs. Do praise them viciously, no matter where you are and who is watching you. Pay him attention, take him out of the car, be with him. It will pay itself back in happier, more self-confident dog!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

This off topic discussion is becomming more interesting, than the original topic itself

Now it is "in topic"