Differences in bonitations...

[massimo]

For stat lovers (it took me long time...i don't have access to Database like Margo! )
Below standard males and females on WD
Males

Name Code Place County Date Judge Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK 23/5/98 Dora Flint Ju¾ná èast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ 26/4/08 Dora Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK 17/5/03 Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ 6/10/07 Dora Celt Fonèorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 28/11/98 Bognarova Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 12/11/00 Dora
Females

Name Code Place County Date Judge Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK 14/8/99 F. Rosik Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97 Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 ®ilina - Strá¾ova CZ 23/11/96 Dora Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK 15/8/98 F. Rosik Antea z Dubnièanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK 29/10/94 Elys spod Ïumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK 19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.

[massimo]

Sorry, came out really bad!

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora Atos Brevnovská stopa CS A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ25/4/93 Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

Males

Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK23/5/98 Dora
Flint Južná čast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ26/4/08 Dora
Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK17/5/03
Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ6/10/07 Dora
Celt Fončorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK28/11/98 Bognarova
Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hričov SK12/11/00 Dora

Females

Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK14/8/99 F. Rosik
Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK13/7/96 F. Rosik
Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97
Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 Zilina - Strázova CZ23/11/96 Dora
Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK15/8/98 F. Rosik
Antea z Dubničanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK29/10/94
Elys spod Ďumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.

In the case of Gyra you right BUT see Atos Brevnovská stopa CS (A64 Oc R1 P5 Hostivice CZ 25/4/93). Some dogs get really P14 but not ONLY because of the height but also because they have also other serious faults: for example by Leonardo you have additionaly shy character and wrong bite. By some other dogs it can be also wrong indexes which are not visible but counted for the end note...

[wolfin]

Massimo, about help. Handler helped not only Geryon or Gorbi, this have also Alpestre, and Gema and moore dogs. And all be ok. For Margo it is not first bonitation and she is perfect handler for this.

About electric collar - who have this in bonitation?

I HAVE this and i going with them to training and make this with Malik (an he help me training better Geryons comands).
But el.collar not be ussed in boniation, or maybe you have facts and photo about this?

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

About electric collar - who have this in bonitation?
But el.collar not be ussed in boniation, or maybe you have facts and photo about this?

I didn't speak about Electrical Collar during Bonitation.

Originally Posted by massimo

I am strongly against Electric Collar though.
What do you think?

It was a straightforward statement I say because you say what you saw during Gorbi's bonitation was violence.
Somebody else mentioned it during bonitation, not me:

Originally Posted by *satu

Or why somebody use electricity collar in bonitation?

For me Electric Collar is a stronger violence and I am against it unless the dogs have serious serious problems (better electric collar than being shot down)
Violence to a dog is ALSO to let him do what he wants, to let him be your BOSS, to let him think he can do anything and he is right; it's TOTALLY wrong and can lead to make him be put down in future...
Violence is also the Breeder who sells a difficult dog as CSW without warning the owners about what "could" happen, about Hierarchy, about leadership; breeders who don't care about the dogs they sold anymore and don't care about their future but just the money they bring.
Sorry for this OT but I'm a bit sad, a CSW has recently been put down in Italy because week owners (husband and wife) were badly bit by their male.
Massimo

[wolfin]

but we speak about bonitation, if You wish speak about training and el.collar systems we cann make other new topic.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by wolfin

but we speak about bonitation, if You wish speak about training and el.collar systems we cann make other new topic.

I spoke about definition of violence, considering that between us we surely have different idea of what violence is, considering what we saw during bonitation.

But if you want to speak about bonitation.

Originally Posted by Margo

... with Daiva the dog didn't allowed to be measured even when I tried to help her - he was protecting himself and I think it is the video you saw for sure. But later we changed and only I started to show him. Without any problems I get the muzzle off of him and calmed him down...

These words speak for themselves.
I have never seen you train your dogs and I cannot judge you. But if I try to understand these words... Geryon was protecting himself from you, or better, from something you do to him which he doesn't like.
I am sure your dog loves you, just as my dogs love me.
I know I don't have much control of my dog when he is in contact with other males.

Originally Posted by *Satu

Thanks God ! my dogs are not aggressive for anybody and I can walk whit them everywhere.

I agree with you Satu, precious words... I wish I could avoid being pulled around when other males are there.
Maybe my dog doesn't respect me as much as he SHOULD.
But I know my dog LOVES and RESPECTS me, and he is ok to be handled by any normally behaving human being without any problem.
Are you sure your dogs do not FEAR you?
Dogs fear violence.
Gorbi wasn't afraid of Michael during bonitation or after, everybody saw this.
Massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

I HAVE this and i going with them to training and make this with Malik (an he help me training better Geryons comands).

Daiva,

I don't want a discussion on electric collars in general.
Different people, different attitudes.
But let me ask you the one or other question about your use of this kind of collar on your dog Geryon.
1. Why was it necessary to use it in the first place, and how old was he?
2.In what exact situations did you use it?
3.How did you prepare you and your dog for this situation?
4.Do you think the use had any impact on the behavior of Geryon and did it change the problems you and your dog (remember, the problem is mostly at the end of the lead) had in a positive way?
5.If you're honest with yourself, is there the possibility of something going the other direction as desired?
6.If yes, has it maybe something to do with the fact that you cannot handle your own dog?
7.Or is it just due to a lack of a proper rank order, which can of course not be "cured" by an electric collar.
If you don't want to answer these questions here, feel free to send me a private message.

Thanks in advance for your help clarifying this questions,
Michael

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

1. Why was it necessary to use it in the first place, and how old was he?
2.In what exact situations did you use it?
3.How did you prepare you and your dog for this situation?
4.Do you think the use had any impact on the behavior of Geryon and did it change the problems you and your dog (remember, the problem is mostly at the end of the lead) had in a positive way?
5.If you're honest with yourself, is there the possibility of something going the other direction as desired?
6.If yes, has it maybe something to do with the fact that you cannot handle your own dog?
7.Or is it just due to a lack of a proper rank order, which can of course not be "cured" by an electric collar.

Michael

sorry i have very hard work


2.3.4.5.7. about this you mass speak with me personal trainer
6. i think others if you think not like me this is not me problems but Yours.


regards

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

2.3.4.5.7. about this you mass speak with me personal trainer

regards

I am not Michael, who is away at work for this week, but I think you should be able to explain such things yourself when you use an electric collar or you shouldn´t use it because you are not qualified for it. You use it yourself so you should also be able to explain why by yourself and you should have very good reasons why there is no other way of training. Otherwise it is a case of abuse and extreme psychological violance against the dog no matter if you use it during bonitation or not.
Being thrown on the back and held down is something that is element of social interactions in wolves and dogs. Something I can show you easily in our wolf or dog pack, though it shouldn´t be used in regular terms from unexperienced owners. Being shocked by an electric collar is not and therefor not understandable for the dog within the social context and training is something in a social context.

But anyway this is nothing that should be discussed any longer in a topic about differences in Bonitations. I agree with you on that one point.

Ina