Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed or not?

[massimo]

Originally Posted by pariduzz

I' asked my this question: ... are my dogs healthy(hd A;hd B), are they wolfish ,apparently without great defects , and a great beautiful character I don't have make them join without bonitation?

I will repeat that A and B Litter Groups have HD results so they should from my point of view with parents "health" certification.
It doesn't mean the puppies will be without displasia, just that the parents health is certified.

A litters should be distinguished from B litters because also morphologica characteristics have been certified, not only health of Parents.

Example is Peppe's sentance above: my dogs are healthy, they are wolfish, apparently without great defects, beautiful character, why shouldn't they mate?
They should, if you want, you are the breeder and it's your choice.
BUT... there is no certification of their character and morphological qualities from an experienced judge. YOU know that they are without defects, and if I buy a dog from you, I must trust YOU.
Allow me to say, no offense, that if Margo or Hanka or other experienced breeders use a dog without adult bonitation (B group), I would take a puppy from them because I trust them or I know they have experience.
Before I took a puppy from somebody else, I would have to see the parents personally first and be 100% sure of my choice.

I will make a stupid example: i met a breeder who was confident about his dogs, beautiful dogs, went to a couple of shows (not experienced breed judges but normal allrounder judges) who mated his dogs.
Puppies grew up and somebody underlined to him that 70% of the litter had teeth problems (missing teeth).
He then discovered (when puppies were 1 year old...) that both parents had same teeth problems and transmitted this to puppies... but HE never noticed it!!
I could have made the same mistake myself, I must admit... but my dogs have been bonitated and I've been to shows with experienced judges who check everything, even teeth!
Massimo

[martiou07]

bonjour, le fait d'avoir la bonitation ainsi que les radios me semble et nous semble à beaucoup d'entre nous une chose importante. C'est aussi pourquoi j'ai voulut pour la première portée de ma chienne les avoir.
il est bien dommage que beaucoup n'y pretent pas attention et font de la reproduction sans ....
pour ce qui est de la bonitation c'est vrai que certain chien l'ont pas, cependant il suffit de regarder quel éleveur les ont pas, et après à chacun de se faire sa propre opinion suivant l'éleveur en question.
sur certain mariage effectué chez certains éleveurs , je sais que si je recherchais un chien, j'irais sans crainte sans la bonitation

hello, the fact d' to have the bonitation as well as the radios seems to me and seems to us with much d' between us an important thing. C' is also why j' have wanted for the first range of my bitch to have them. it is well damage that much n' do not pay attention and make reproduction to it without…. as regards the bonitation c' is true that certain dog l' do not have, afterwards however it is enough to look at which stockbreeder do not have them, and with each one to form its own opinion according to l' stockbreeder in question. about certain marriage carried out in certain stockbreeders, I know that if I sought a dog, j' would go without fear without the bonitation

sorry for the tanslation , my english ...............

Martial

[Rona]

I propose further improvements :
Litters whose parents have fairly done bonitation should be indicated in light green, and those with "lifted" results - dark green
Litters bred by nice, friendly breeders should carry a pink ribbon, and those of unpleasant individuals - a black one.

Any more suggestions?

I just want to draw your attention to the fact that apart from "technical" info there are elements/ factors that do not fit into any system(s).

I saw unbonitated dogs, that were healthy and lovable. I saw small dogs whose pups grew up to 72 cm. And I also heard of a bonitated dog with P1 that only the owner dared to touch and always with a treat in his hand. (one may wonder how was the P1 obtained )

I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.

[loco]

Originally Posted by Rona

I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.

Here the same .

I also think that it just should be possible for all breeders to advertise there litters, just because on this site you can find all info of the World of CSW.
And otherwise its got a little bit the taste of censor .

Groette Martine.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

I just want to draw your attention to the fact that apart from "technical" info there are elements/ factors that do not fit into any system(s).

I saw unbonitated dogs, that were healthy and lovable. I saw small dogs whose pups grew up to 72 cm. And I also heard of a bonitated dog with P1 that only the owner dared to touch and always with a treat in his hand. (one may wonder how was the P1 obtained )

I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.

Even if it is a A breeder do not mean that the HD and bonitation test is good,
or that the parents are frendley.

But you talk about that 1cm and the bad bonitation judges,
and that is a nother problem.

A system whit A, B and C will make it beter, not perfect.

Regards / Mikael

[loco]

Originally Posted by Mikael

A system whit A, B and C will make it beter, not perfect.

Regards / Mikael

Just wondering, for who makes this system it better ?????

[massimo]

Originally Posted by loco

Just wondering, for who makes this system it better ?????

just wondering...what is your opinion? what suggestions do you have?

Please make suggestions and what YOU consider improvements, saying this or that is not good without giving any positive input doesn't help anybody.
massimo

[loco]

Originally Posted by massimo

just wondering...what is your opinion? what suggestions do you have?

Please make suggestions and what YOU consider improvements, saying this or that is not good without giving any positive input doesn't help anybody.
massimo

I do not have suggestions and improvements for the litters list.
Just think the way it is it is perfect .

Let people think/judge for themself .

Groette Martine.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Rona

I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.

I think AGAIN we are loosing the real spirit of what is being suggested.
There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter.
It is just MORE direct information to users of this site.
Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C.
I think this has been already explained in other posts but it seems not to be clear enough.

From my point of view I have written even too much so I will no longer write anything on this thread.
Massimo

[Rona]

Originally Posted by massimo

I think AGAIN we are loosing the real spirit of what is being suggested.
There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter.
It is just MORE direct information to users of this site.
Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C.
I think this has been already explained in other posts but it seems not to be clear enough.
Massimo

1. First of all - I'm not a breeder, I don't intend to be. I didn't even vote on the poll since I have no opinion.
2. I do understand the proposed system.
3. I'm not against the system in principle, but I'm trying to anticipate the effects it'd bring - remember that intensions are one thing, and the results of its implementations - another. Lenin also meant well (not that I compare Massimo to Lenin )

The danger is, that however hard you'd try to convince potential owners that a 'yellow litter' is OK according to legal regulations in many countries that do not require bonitation (X-raying is another issue because it's available everywhere) most of them will try to purchase a pup from a "green" list. It may result in:
1. Much higher prices of "green" litters
2. More 'result lifting' at bonitations
3. Even more ill feelings among breeders (gossiping to downgrade the greenness of the litters)
4. disappointment of the buyers (I bought a pup from a green litter, paid a fortune for it and it has faults)

In fact introduction of the system would promote Czech national regulations concerning breeding. But why not base it on the Slovakian or German ones and additionally require "running exams" and ED results- and mark the dogs that have those?

You may try to explain again and again on WD or wherever what the colours mean and what the intentions were, but HOW the new owners will understand it - is a completley different matter.

I have no idea how to improve it and I don't propose anything, but I believe it's good to look at such a proposal from various sides before any final decisions are made.

[Mikael]

To Rona

I think the intensions are to make the CsV healty and more standard like.
And I think it will be more easy fore the buyers to buy the dog they wont.

And hopefully thanks to this system, there will only be A and B breeders in the future

But even if you buy from A and B it is not a 100% guarantee,
but the chance to get a healty pup is mush bigger.

This is not about the breeders or there gossip, or even money...
It is about the breed !!! and a way to provent unnecessary suffering fore the dogs !!!

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

To Rona

I think the intensions are to make the CsV healty and more standard like.
And I think it will be more easy fore the buyers to buy the dog they wont.

And hopefully thanks to this system, there will only be A and B breeders in the future

But even if you buy from A and B it is not a 100% guarantee,
but the chance to get a healty pup is mush bigger.

This is not about the breeders or there gossip, or even money...
It is about the breed !!! and a way to provent unnecessary suffering fore the dogs !!!

Best regards / Mikael

To Mikael,
I'm afraid you didn't read my post carefully

[Nebelwölfe]

Originally Posted by massimo

There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter.
It is just MORE direct information to users of this site.
Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C.

The litter ads should be divided in group A, B and C - depending on if the parents do have HD results and/or bonitation or not - and this should not be a judgement. How real is it, that interested buyers as well as breeders do not assum it as judgement? If dividing litter ads up in groups are not supposed to tell, if a litter is "better" or a breeder ist more responsible than the other - e.g. because the parents in A group are x-rayed and in C group are not - so what sense does it make, to divide them up at all?? Wouldn't the chance be very high, that a grouping would give a "wrong" picture, since the mating with e.g. one or two "bad" bonitated dogs seems to be "better" as a mating, in which maybe only one dog is bonitated - but the breeder knows about the other dog very good?

If database is kept actual - all informations about HD results and bonitation of parents can be found in the litter ads with one click...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by littlepeet

The litter ads should be divided in group A, B and C - depending on if the parents do have HD results and/or bonitation or not - and this should not be a judgement. How real is it, that interested buyers as well as breeders do not assum it as judgement?

This is exactly the point I made earlier! Those, who want to introduce the system may not intend or mean any judgements, but how realistic it is that the potential owners/buyers/ other breeders will not make them anyway...

Although the system seems very rational from the "founders'" point of view, I'm not sure it will bring the required results. The 'red litters' will probably dissapear from WD but it doesn't mean that they won't occur.... In the long run there will be even less information on what is happening to the breed than now.

As I said - this is not my problem, I'm only trying to act devil's advocate