Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed or not?

Mikael · 01-11-2008, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

No put them in red,orange and green on wolfdog, and then they have a chance to choose ??????????

They have the right to Not be born by parents whit HD C/C x B/B !!!
And whit this system many of them will hopefully not be born from parents whit bad HD results.
But you think it is OK to not eaven do a X-ray, or am I wrong ???

/ Mikael

loco · 01-11-2008, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

They have the right to Not be born by parents whit HD C/C x B/B !!!
And whit this system many of them will hopefully not be born from parents whit bad HD results.
But you think it is OK to not eaven do a X-ray, or am I wrong ???
/ Mikael

I do not think it is good to breed with dogs without any x-rays

never said I do

.

But I think it is idealistic to think, when you do not allow those litters anymore or put them in the redzone on WD.
They now gone make x-rays and bonitate there dogs and maybe because of the badresult they do not breed anymore with there dogs.

And all of this because of a boxsystem on WD ?
Maybe in a idealworld.

There are breeders who do not use WD at all to advertise there pups, they do not have hd results and bonitationcode

and dispite of that sell all of the pups

.

Groette Martine.

pariduzz · 01-11-2008, 13:29

You excuse me,probably I am badly me express.
The most correct thing is to make a bonitation, obviously.
I have made my example to underline how much they would want but today they have not succeeded unfortunately still in doing a correct bonitation.
And I want to repeat not for superficiality but for different problems,more kilometre's, job ,study etc...
Obviously before making to join my dogs, I have talked with different friends and breeders and I have been sorry a lot not to have been able to make the bonitation .
Certainly if I bring my dogs in the beach between peaople, children and other dogs of all the kinds without leash I have something of very indicative on their character, it doesn't have the objective characteristics of a bonitation it is true, but I have face too many wolf-dog's difficult in adoption for not trust that they are right for riproduction.
I know well that I am not Margo, Hanka, and not even Massimo, but I hope to be on the correct road .
Very probably next year we will make the bonitation and we will also end in the lists of the good ; ones but my thought go to how much they have very good dogs and they cannot make the bonitation, we should be our care to try to recover them for the race, also to the light of the poor genetic variability.
Your idea is sensible and going to in the sense to give an important contribution to the breeding, but we should also invent us a system to involve those isolated people that have very interesting dogs and whose blood should be brought around for the europa, so we risks to close even more us on if same.

Mikael · 01-11-2008, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

I do not think it is good to breed with dogs without any x-rays

never said I do

.

But I think it is idealistic to think, when you do not allow those litters anymore or put them in the redzone on WD.
They now gone make x-rays and bonitate there dogs and maybe because of the badresult they do not breed anymore with there dogs.

And all of this because of a boxsystem on WD ?
Maybe in a idealworld.

There are breeders who do not use WD at all to advertise there pups, they do not have hd results and bonitationcode

and dispite of that sell all of the pups

.

Groette Martine.

I do not se the big problem here...

All they have to do is X-ray there dogs before they breed !!!
It is easy to do in all country´s, and it is not to expensive neather.

And fore the breeders that do not use WD.org today, we can do nothing.
If there dream is to breed whitout HD tests it is a pity, but nothing we can do anything about.

/ Mikael

loco · 01-11-2008, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

I do not se the big problem here...

All they have to do is X-ray there dogs before they breed !!!
It is easy to do in all country´s, and it is not to expensive neather.

/ Mikael

I also do not see it as a problem

.
But if you see the litterlist, there are enough people for who it is a huge problem to make a X-ray

.

Nebulosa · 01-11-2008, 19:00

I think the idea is pretty good, I understand it perfectly, but people are forgething some important little things

First of all, lets see one reallity wich was completly forgothen here, bonitation isn't acessible for everyone, we have already 2 registered breeders in americas, me and Wildenmorgen, do you really think is that easy take a plane, make all documents for the dogs and travel to europe for make a bonitation? People, if I travel with my dogs more than 1 time per 2 years I will pay'd taxes for my OWN dogs back to MY country as if I had buy then outsite, I will need minimally 6 months of exams in the dogs for they get the CZI for MAYBE enter in europe, they will need travel almost one full day or more without water or food, lonely in cages as baggage!
I can travel only 1 time per 2 years, so, I will fell really stupid if I lost this only opportunity to bring new bloodlined dogs easy to my country for do a bonitation!
I don't want blame bonitation here, but we all know that this isn't so rellyable at point of we do all this way only for make bonitations.
For we bring bonitations we will need bring the judges all this way, I saw how was difficult for Belgiun club make the bonitation, I cannot imagine how will be for the judges comes here, and this is the only one of the high amount of problems we normally have for make important events specific for a breed because the size of the country.. maybe the guys wich have a CzW in French Guiana will drive by car more than 10.000 km for go to an bonitation in Brasil, if theyr cars support the roads prototypes we have in north.
But this is our own problems, you're all have nothing to do with this, futurelly I hope we will soon have more breeders here and they automatically will fall in B class independant how good and criterious is theyr selection, and , as Rona remeber perfectly, we will understand the only few differences wich exists between the two groups, but other people not, we will be ever like a "second class" independand of wich we do... togheter with some breeders in europe that live close to orign country and dont dare to go and bonitate their dogs or by fear of receive a P14 or for lack of time, or maybe by lazyness and careless.
people isn't able to differ good and bad breeders, will never understand this little difference in B group.

But now think in the breed, more important than Bonitation surelly is the ED results, I know we have few dogs with this problem but we still have, ED results are acessible for every country do and is really important, some dogs in this list have this problem and only who saw their in reallity will have a little notion that , maybe, the dog wich moves strange on dogshows have probems in elbows, and here, we're talking about a illness worst to control than HD because it's genetic.
In same way we can think about working exams, exams are the way to proof your dog can work, we know of course some cases of dogs wich pass because the test was done in it's own garden or because the helpler was the owner or someone the dog was already accostumate to attack, but it's better than nothing, important is let the breed continues to be a working dog like it was created, in countries like France that protection cannot be made, it's possible to make track tests, obedience and so on. CzW must show itself more as working dog than it's now, I believe more in dogs wich have BH and others tests than one Of in bonitation, and, well, working exams have in all countries too, being acessible for everyone without difficulty.

I think Bonitation surelly is important, but until now it isn't acessible for everyone for be such crucial in a global list.

Mikael · 01-11-2008, 20:29

To Nebulosa

I think people will understand that the breeders in America are not abel to bonitate

I also think that a dog from a B-breeder whit good working results are beter than a dog from a A-breeder whit only a bonitation as working (title)

But I do not think we can do the system after you, or other breeders in America
or breeders far away like Finland, Sweden, Israel etc...

I might find my self on the B list one day, and I do not se this as a big problem at all...

It is what is best fore the breed that is important here, nothing else

Regards / Mikael

Nebulosa · 01-11-2008, 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

To Nebulosa

I think people will understand that the breeders in America are not abel to bonitate

I also think that a dog from a B-breeder whit good working results are beter than a dog from a A-breeder whit only a bonitation as working (title)

But I do not think we can do the system after you, or other breeders in America
or breeders far away like Finland, Sweden, Israel etc...

I might find my self on the B list one day, and I do not se this as a big problem at all...

It is what is best fore the breed that is important here, nothing else

Regards / Mikael

Mikael, for you, me, Rona, Massimo, Margo and all other well informed person A or B group won't matter, won't be quality signal or any judgement type, will be only a way to separe bonitated dogs to these wich aren't, but for not well informed people or for people wich is recently getting information about breeding, that don't know already how bonitation is done, what is needed for do this, yes, it will matter because for then A will be first class and B second one, with less quality only for be in B.
So, what I, you or Hanka will think about it won't matter because you're informed, you know what is a bonitation and what is needed, but others not. This is the only problem.
Suppossing you will be breeder, so, your kennel, that do things right, that make all exams but unfortunatelly that haven't time enough for make all tryp and bonitate your dogs, you will be the same as any other irresponsible, lazy or "too much occupied for its dogs" kennel that live at side of the original countries and don't have bonitate theyrs dog by fear or lack quality, for not informed people, wich not know genetics, lines and so on, we're all be the same.
I really don't want a different Database for who live far, but I think that have more important things that may be valuated than only bonitation to put a dog in A or B class.

Other important thing, this is a database, so, when more information we get better for us and the breed, by the way I think litters without HD may not be announced, but I think that these litters without HD when not announced not leave futurelly informations for us about the pupies that born. These information can be gold, if in these litter had a displasic dog, if not, how many die and so on, so I don't think the site must be so restrict in the announcement, the good point in all this topic is that divide litters and even breeders by categories will allow everybody announce and fullfill the information about theyrs litters, so, we will have more information here, but, we need think really well before do anything.

But you know... the main goal is kill Przemek working

View Poll Results: Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed?
Yes	20	54.05%
No	17	45.95%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

01-11-2008, 13:29	#3
pariduzz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Monte di Procida (Na) Posts: 1,682	You excuse me,probably I am badly me express. The most correct thing is to make a bonitation, obviously. I have made my example to underline how much they would want but today they have not succeeded unfortunately still in doing a correct bonitation. And I want to repeat not for superficiality but for different problems,more kilometre's, job ,study etc... Obviously before making to join my dogs, I have talked with different friends and breeders and I have been sorry a lot not to have been able to make the bonitation . Certainly if I bring my dogs in the beach between peaople, children and other dogs of all the kinds without leash I have something of very indicative on their character, it doesn't have the objective characteristics of a bonitation it is true, but I have face too many wolf-dog's difficult in adoption for not trust that they are right for riproduction. I know well that I am not Margo, Hanka, and not even Massimo, but I hope to be on the correct road . Very probably next year we will make the bonitation and we will also end in the lists of the good ; ones but my thought go to how much they have very good dogs and they cannot make the bonitation, we should be our care to try to recover them for the race, also to the light of the poor genetic variability. Your idea is sensible and going to in the sense to give an important contribution to the breeding, but we should also invent us a system to involve those isolated people that have very interesting dogs and whose blood should be brought around for the europa, so we risks to close even more us on if same. __________________ www.lupifelix.it

01-11-2008, 19:00	#6
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	I think the idea is pretty good, I understand it perfectly, but people are forgething some important little things First of all, lets see one reallity wich was completly forgothen here, bonitation isn't acessible for everyone, we have already 2 registered breeders in americas, me and Wildenmorgen, do you really think is that easy take a plane, make all documents for the dogs and travel to europe for make a bonitation? People, if I travel with my dogs more than 1 time per 2 years I will pay'd taxes for my OWN dogs back to MY country as if I had buy then outsite, I will need minimally 6 months of exams in the dogs for they get the CZI for MAYBE enter in europe, they will need travel almost one full day or more without water or food, lonely in cages as baggage! I can travel only 1 time per 2 years, so, I will fell really stupid if I lost this only opportunity to bring new bloodlined dogs easy to my country for do a bonitation! I don't want blame bonitation here, but we all know that this isn't so rellyable at point of we do all this way only for make bonitations. For we bring bonitations we will need bring the judges all this way, I saw how was difficult for Belgiun club make the bonitation, I cannot imagine how will be for the judges comes here, and this is the only one of the high amount of problems we normally have for make important events specific for a breed because the size of the country.. maybe the guys wich have a CzW in French Guiana will drive by car more than 10.000 km for go to an bonitation in Brasil, if theyr cars support the roads prototypes we have in north. But this is our own problems, you're all have nothing to do with this, futurelly I hope we will soon have more breeders here and they automatically will fall in B class independant how good and criterious is theyr selection, and , as Rona remeber perfectly, we will understand the only few differences wich exists between the two groups, but other people not, we will be ever like a "second class" independand of wich we do... togheter with some breeders in europe that live close to orign country and dont dare to go and bonitate their dogs or by fear of receive a P14 or for lack of time, or maybe by lazyness and careless. people isn't able to differ good and bad breeders, will never understand this little difference in B group. But now think in the breed, more important than Bonitation surelly is the ED results, I know we have few dogs with this problem but we still have, ED results are acessible for every country do and is really important, some dogs in this list have this problem and only who saw their in reallity will have a little notion that , maybe, the dog wich moves strange on dogshows have probems in elbows, and here, we're talking about a illness worst to control than HD because it's genetic. In same way we can think about working exams, exams are the way to proof your dog can work, we know of course some cases of dogs wich pass because the test was done in it's own garden or because the helpler was the owner or someone the dog was already accostumate to attack, but it's better than nothing, important is let the breed continues to be a working dog like it was created, in countries like France that protection cannot be made, it's possible to make track tests, obedience and so on. CzW must show itself more as working dog than it's now, I believe more in dogs wich have BH and others tests than one Of in bonitation, and, well, working exams have in all countries too, being acessible for everyone without difficulty. I think Bonitation surelly is important, but until now it isn't acessible for everyone for be such crucial in a global list. __________________ Last edited by Nebulosa; 01-11-2008 at 19:03.

01-11-2008, 20:29	#7
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	To Nebulosa I think people will understand that the breeders in America are not abel to bonitate I also think that a dog from a B-breeder whit good working results are beter than a dog from a A-breeder whit only a bonitation as working (title) But I do not think we can do the system after you, or other breeders in America or breeders far away like Finland, Sweden, Israel etc... I might find my self on the B list one day, and I do not se this as a big problem at all... It is what is best fore the breed that is important here, nothing else Regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916 Last edited by Mikael; 01-11-2008 at 20:41.