Italian bonitations

[Navarre]

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.
I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.

This make no sense to me ? when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

Originally Posted by Navarre

I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

One could easily say the same about Cz and Sk, it isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different interpretations.

Originally Posted by Navarre

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

When you make such a big number out of what is facts, then please make sure what you write really is facts ! as far as I can read, there was 17 dogs at last bonitation made by "so-called" Italien breed club and at the last 3 bonitations before that, there were 16, 12 and 12 ...I only see 1 bonitation made by you and friends with help from Czech club with 41 dogs, but jumping to this conclution on such a small basis that you write here, is really not objective ! ...please correct me if I am wrong

Originally Posted by Navarre

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!
I have seen more of you writing about this dog in this thread, please stop it ! ...even that I am very happy for your input, it is not very constructive to write about this dog and brings no light to the subject which is Italian bonitations.

Please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by rolf

when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Originally Posted by rolf

.please correct me if I am wrong

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?
Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?
Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

Originally Posted by rolf

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!

I agree. I don't know why hannadina talk about this dog some messages ago...

Originally Posted by rolf

Please keep an open mind

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Rules or no rules, NON of these 3 countries(at the moment) do make exactly the same bonitations and this is my point I think Italian bonitation have the same rules as others, but they just don`t perform it in the same way, just like Cz and Sk don`t perform the bonitation in the same way. If you look at earlier posts and also in the thread(differences in bonitations) you will see that Cz and Sk do not value the same in the bonitation and I will repeat my self : Is one difference worser or better than another ? as long as they are not all the same in ALL countries, they are really not compareble. Another of my points is that the character test which they perform differently in Italy, is really worth nothing in ALL 3 countries for a character test, so I don`t see the Italian difference as a big fault who should make Cz and Sk not to recognize the bonitation.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?

No I didn`t ask, but I will try to answer anyway ! if you already have a national club for this, then why not use it ? I guess(because I don`t know) that your club is democratic, like the rest of Italy, so why not use your influence as a democratic member(if you are member of this club) to change the way of bonitation, if you have so strong back up from many other members that you stated in an earlier post, it really should be no problem ? or am I missing something ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?

No ! the size of succes is not interesting for me, what is interesting for me is why the Italian bonitation is not recognized by Cz and Sk, apparently the only difference is in the way of how the character test is performed, when this test is already very close to be woth nothing in Cz and Sk anyway and not even the the Cz and Sk bonitations is performed in exactly the same way, then I really don`t see what all this fuzz is about ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

This is why I think it is more importent to work together than to work against eachother.

Originally Posted by Navarre

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

This is a shame for the whole breed, only with cooperation from all parts we can compare the results and I think it is sad if Cz and Sk do not recognize the Italian bonitation and vice-versa, both parts will loose a lot of breeding options in this way, which are not good for a breed with a small genepool.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

I surly do keep an open mind, that is why I ask these questions and try not to state facts who really are not facts
I ask these questions only to get more wise on a subject that I really do not understand.

Greetings Rolf

[massimo]

Sorry if I bring back this thread from being buried long time ago but I missed it and as it is being discussed in Italy I couldn't help laughing for some things I read.

1) it seems Italian bonitation as is done today is NOT recognized by Czech and Slovak club.
this has always been said by Margo, in fact on this site the dogs with Italian bonitation do not have a code but an X. I have never heared a direct statement from Czech and Slovak Club stating it however.

2) what does it mean for a czech and slovak club to recognize a bonitation from another country?
As far as I know, please tell me if I am wrong, a bonitation is usefull to know morphological and character defects of a dog.
In CZ and SK, it is fundamental to have a bonitation if you want to breed with a dog.
In other countries, as in Italy, bonitation is not fundamental so we can breed with dogs without bonitation because it is not the csw club who gives pedigree but the main kennel club.
From what I know, if a Czech breeder wants to use a male from another country, this male needs to have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So..if in Italy there are no requirements for breeding, the czech breeder can use an Italian dog WITHOUT bonitation.

Who cares if Italian bonitation is recognized anyway?
Czechs can use a male without bonitation if it is not a requirement in his country!
As for slovak breeders...how many slovak breeders have used czech dogs?? not many....very little...hardly any! If they don't use Czech dogs i would be surprised if they used Italian or other country dogs (unless totally slovak lines of course!)

As for difference between bonitations in different countries....that is what really made me laugh!
I have seen bonitations both in CZ, in SK and in Italy.
How many others have seen all 3? not even Margo...let alone nebulosa or Angelika....so how can you judge?
Saying Italian bonitation is NOT valid because the figurant aggression is not an agression and the dog is not alone is ridiculous.
Saying CZ and SK bonitations are the same is even more ridiculous.
Agression from figurant in SK (and i've seen 3 different bonitations I think) was far from an agression!! It was a person, often a woman, walking towards the dog, often never looking at it in the eyes, waving a stick.
If you don't believe me...there are video recordings of both cz and sk bonitations and I really would like to see who can say it's equivalent.
Of course...the judges are so good they can judge and weigh according to the different level of agression.... but that is subjective and no longer objective.

As for Italian bonitation validity, it seems last valid bonitation made in Italy according to Margo was made by Sonja Bognarova (2004?)
WHY?? also then there was no agression to the dog...and I know because I bonitated my dog in that occcasion. But Sonja was able to judge anyway.
Why should Sonja (my favourite by far!!) be able to judge although there was no agression and not Monika Soukupova or Jindra Jedlichka (my good friends)? maybe because the last two haven't been in the czech club board for a long time and lost their "influence"?

To my eyes...it's all a matter of politics...useless politics which do NOT help the breed.
I personally will only let Sonja Bognarova officially bonitate my dogs, nobody else. Not because i don't trust the others, but because I see less subjectivity in her eyes then others.
massimo

[Hanka]

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

Thank you Hanka.
All the facts you wrote correspond to my thoughts.
Your personal ideas do not 100%, but life is wonderful because we are different!
I can show you xrays and measurements of my official HD results...so saying you do NOT believe in Italian HD results is really vague for me.
Look at xrays and judge for yourself or get an expert to do it!

You beileve in Polish, Slovak, Hungarian HD results?

I think it doesn't matter "how hard" the character test is done: a good judge will be able to value the reaction of the dog in ANY case!
That is what Sonja told me and I believe her.

Again...i think it is all a matter of "political affairs and personal dislikes".. with less of this...the breed would be easier to control!

This is a video of last year's bonitation in Hronec (sk)

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...1273_WMVV9.flv

the dog is Gorbi zlata Palz...the only male dog to get P1...most of the others were penalized because of their character...
Sonja Bognarova was the judge.
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/147.html

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

Hi Hanka,

Do Czech breeding commitee not accept results of bonitation from Slovakia or is it only from all other countries they do not accept the results ?

Greetings Rolf