Italian bonitations

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Rules or no rules, NON of these 3 countries(at the moment) do make exactly the same bonitations and this is my point I think Italian bonitation have the same rules as others, but they just don`t perform it in the same way, just like Cz and Sk don`t perform the bonitation in the same way. If you look at earlier posts and also in the thread(differences in bonitations) you will see that Cz and Sk do not value the same in the bonitation and I will repeat my self : Is one difference worser or better than another ? as long as they are not all the same in ALL countries, they are really not compareble. Another of my points is that the character test which they perform differently in Italy, is really worth nothing in ALL 3 countries for a character test, so I don`t see the Italian difference as a big fault who should make Cz and Sk not to recognize the bonitation.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?

No I didn`t ask, but I will try to answer anyway ! if you already have a national club for this, then why not use it ? I guess(because I don`t know) that your club is democratic, like the rest of Italy, so why not use your influence as a democratic member(if you are member of this club) to change the way of bonitation, if you have so strong back up from many other members that you stated in an earlier post, it really should be no problem ? or am I missing something ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?

No ! the size of succes is not interesting for me, what is interesting for me is why the Italian bonitation is not recognized by Cz and Sk, apparently the only difference is in the way of how the character test is performed, when this test is already very close to be woth nothing in Cz and Sk anyway and not even the the Cz and Sk bonitations is performed in exactly the same way, then I really don`t see what all this fuzz is about ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

This is why I think it is more importent to work together than to work against eachother.

Originally Posted by Navarre

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

This is a shame for the whole breed, only with cooperation from all parts we can compare the results and I think it is sad if Cz and Sk do not recognize the Italian bonitation and vice-versa, both parts will loose a lot of breeding options in this way, which are not good for a breed with a small genepool.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

I surly do keep an open mind, that is why I ask these questions and try not to state facts who really are not facts
I ask these questions only to get more wise on a subject that I really do not understand.

Greetings Rolf

[massimo]

Sorry if I bring back this thread from being buried long time ago but I missed it and as it is being discussed in Italy I couldn't help laughing for some things I read.

1) it seems Italian bonitation as is done today is NOT recognized by Czech and Slovak club.
this has always been said by Margo, in fact on this site the dogs with Italian bonitation do not have a code but an X. I have never heared a direct statement from Czech and Slovak Club stating it however.

2) what does it mean for a czech and slovak club to recognize a bonitation from another country?
As far as I know, please tell me if I am wrong, a bonitation is usefull to know morphological and character defects of a dog.
In CZ and SK, it is fundamental to have a bonitation if you want to breed with a dog.
In other countries, as in Italy, bonitation is not fundamental so we can breed with dogs without bonitation because it is not the csw club who gives pedigree but the main kennel club.
From what I know, if a Czech breeder wants to use a male from another country, this male needs to have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So..if in Italy there are no requirements for breeding, the czech breeder can use an Italian dog WITHOUT bonitation.

Who cares if Italian bonitation is recognized anyway?
Czechs can use a male without bonitation if it is not a requirement in his country!
As for slovak breeders...how many slovak breeders have used czech dogs?? not many....very little...hardly any! If they don't use Czech dogs i would be surprised if they used Italian or other country dogs (unless totally slovak lines of course!)

As for difference between bonitations in different countries....that is what really made me laugh!
I have seen bonitations both in CZ, in SK and in Italy.
How many others have seen all 3? not even Margo...let alone nebulosa or Angelika....so how can you judge?
Saying Italian bonitation is NOT valid because the figurant aggression is not an agression and the dog is not alone is ridiculous.
Saying CZ and SK bonitations are the same is even more ridiculous.
Agression from figurant in SK (and i've seen 3 different bonitations I think) was far from an agression!! It was a person, often a woman, walking towards the dog, often never looking at it in the eyes, waving a stick.
If you don't believe me...there are video recordings of both cz and sk bonitations and I really would like to see who can say it's equivalent.
Of course...the judges are so good they can judge and weigh according to the different level of agression.... but that is subjective and no longer objective.

As for Italian bonitation validity, it seems last valid bonitation made in Italy according to Margo was made by Sonja Bognarova (2004?)
WHY?? also then there was no agression to the dog...and I know because I bonitated my dog in that occcasion. But Sonja was able to judge anyway.
Why should Sonja (my favourite by far!!) be able to judge although there was no agression and not Monika Soukupova or Jindra Jedlichka (my good friends)? maybe because the last two haven't been in the czech club board for a long time and lost their "influence"?

To my eyes...it's all a matter of politics...useless politics which do NOT help the breed.
I personally will only let Sonja Bognarova officially bonitate my dogs, nobody else. Not because i don't trust the others, but because I see less subjectivity in her eyes then others.
massimo

[Hanka]

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

Thank you Hanka.
All the facts you wrote correspond to my thoughts.
Your personal ideas do not 100%, but life is wonderful because we are different!
I can show you xrays and measurements of my official HD results...so saying you do NOT believe in Italian HD results is really vague for me.
Look at xrays and judge for yourself or get an expert to do it!

You beileve in Polish, Slovak, Hungarian HD results?

I think it doesn't matter "how hard" the character test is done: a good judge will be able to value the reaction of the dog in ANY case!
That is what Sonja told me and I believe her.

Again...i think it is all a matter of "political affairs and personal dislikes".. with less of this...the breed would be easier to control!

This is a video of last year's bonitation in Hronec (sk)

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...1273_WMVV9.flv

the dog is Gorbi zlata Palz...the only male dog to get P1...most of the others were penalized because of their character...
Sonja Bognarova was the judge.
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/147.html

[Hanka]

Hi hi, I belive only what I see on my own eyes .
I will not comment this test of character , I prefer a little diferent test.
But it is always the same "problem" a few years. Very different conditions for breeding dogs in all World.
I like czech HD research. The veterinar doctor must write much dates on paperf A4 format and he MUST measure it. Everybody can read much about hips of every wolfdog. I would like all clubs in Evropa will have the same paper for all veterinars in evropa. It can be first step for the same way of researching of HIPs. It is easy.We can copy it and send to all clubs. and: every veterinar send ALL (!!!!) results to oficial club. So nobody can breed without oficial HD.
But you are right : 1000 people has 1000 ideas, because everybody is different.
Have a nice summer. If you will be in Czech, visit me

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by massimo

This is a video of last year's bonitation in Hronec (sk)

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...1273_WMVV9.flv

Thank you Massimo

To me this proves that one bonitation is not better/worse than another and the whole discussion about which bonitation is valid and which is not, is absolutly useless, as non of the bonitations in the 3 countries in subject are the same.

I can only agree with you that it is all about "political affairs and personal dislikes" ...which is a shame for the breed

[mijke]

hhmmmmm... If it is political or not...I think everybody of you are right in a part.. But everybody has to realise there is also a big difference in accepting breed behaviour and dog behaviour in all the different countries!!

In my country we have a new (volunteer) behaviour test: the TOP test and I was on the first try outs with several breeds… It is to complicated to explain what is the all about and what is the difference with the before MAG test. But I can assure you that not one dog that did get P1 or P3 in Bonitation (in consideration behaviour) will succeed for this test!
(by the way I am still doubting to do this test with my CsW with Fo for behaviour in official Bonitation, but till today I am scared what the results means in the TOP test in my country for the CsW breed in future)

The differences in European countries what to accept or not about dogs and what is acceptable dog behaviour is more then huge!!!!
In my crowded country it is simple only normal that you will get a sign of police when your dog is for example only barging in your own garden. When I was the first time in SK, CZ, PL, Hu and Italy , I was surprised that there it was obligated that dogs were guarding there private garden with barking and growling

So how the hell we then can expect that Bonitations and other tests about behaviour and defence of dogs in every European country can be the same and accepted?

I did choose years ago to import a CsW from CZ and not to buy one from Dutch lines (and till today I am still very glad with this, the breeder, and the Reolup line!! )But…… in my country are this kind of CsW’s with a bit explosive, very active and independence behaviour not common…But I like my female very much especially because of her behaviour and her drive to want to do things with me but also because her very open and friendly behaviour to strange and unknown people for her. . (she has a spirit to work, but I admit I use this not enough ) But in Holland I hear a lot of negative comments about this female….. Even one of the owners of her offspring did tell she wants not to breed because this female has “the same bad character as her mother” (explosive, active and always wants to dominate other females)

And when all these kind of things are happening in European countries, why we can think a Bonitation in all countries can be the same and accepted by everyone ????

But don’t misunderstand me… when I did want now to buy as starter a new CsW , the parents should to have at least a good result of a SK or CZ Bonitation result )))))))))))))))

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry ))

Hi Hanka,

Do Czech breeding commitee not accept results of bonitation from Slovakia or is it only from all other countries they do not accept the results ?

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

I can not say to mush about the Italian nor the tests in SL or CZ

But this is the MH-test ( Mental Health test) you MUST do whit your CsV before breeding in Sweden...No MH test, No pedigree for your puppies…

There is no Bonitation. (Only) MH test requirement and DNA test to prove the parents of the puppies.

www*youtube*com/watch?v=Am35v-2TURs
www*youtube*com/watch?v=3PQZVQlu62o
www*youtube*com/watch?v=2iCinQ6HKnQ
www*youtube*com/watch?v=tP2tI6d8g88
www*youtube*com/watch?v=G8Ope_lNLGk
www*youtube*com/watch?v=YdMhrMNmPYg


EDIT---

If you want that the links works, its only substitue the red starts * for points .

[BRUCH]

i know only this:

all bonitation in italy are falsed to Sarka Matrasova (Arimminum) in accorded whit fabio caselli (Passo del Lupo).

fabio and sarka are a resboseble tecnic of italian official club

this 2 play a good opion only for for her dogs, and change the helping.

all dog that are not arimminum or passo del lupo take P5 or P14

disgusting


www.lupidelmontale.it

[valentina]

I made the bonitations in CHIGNOLO (PAVIA) with a CZECH CLUB
with italian organization

http://picasaweb.google.it/valentina...88575973305282

http://picasaweb.google.it/valentina...54663464430258

I DO NOT HAVE an ARRIMINUM DOG but misha (my simple dog) take P3

before to talk you must inform you!
I do not know the others Italian bonitations, I write only about my test!

[massimo]

Originally Posted by BRUCH

i know only this:
all bonitation in italy are falsed to Sarka Matrasova (Arimminum) in accorded whit fabio caselli (Passo del Lupo).
fabio and sarka are a resboseble tecnic of italian official club
this 2 play a good opion only for for her dogs, and change the helping.
all dog that are not arimminum or passo del lupo take P5 or P14
disgusting

Marco,
Sarka Matrasova is no longer in Itailan CSW club already since a couple of years.
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....utturaammi.htm
as for bonitation votes, these are given by Judge and not by the club technical board members.
Last year there was an official and VERY successful (41 dogs...biggest ever in Italy) bonitation made by Czech Club in Pavia organized also by Sarka Matrasova.

Just for the sake of truth, some stats:
Club Bonitations since 2007: 5
Number of adult dogs bonitated: 27
P1-15, P3-9, P5-1, P14-2

Passo del lupo 13 6xP1, 6xP3, 1xP5
L'amico del lupo 3 3xP1
Ariminnum 3 3xP1
Foresta incantata 2 P1, P3
Z Molu Es 1 P3
Vom Sturmwind 1 P14
Lupi di Monte Morello 1 P1
Al Fiume 1 P1
Lupi dei Camurati 1 P14
"Private" 1 P1

Surely the only P14 were given to NON PDL or Ariminnum dogs, but the other Non Pdl or Ariminnum dogs ALL got P1 or P3.

As for the Czech bonitation in Pavia, it was more successful in one bonitation than the itailan club in the last 3 years.

Number of adult dogs bonitated: 31
P1-19, P3-9, P5-1, P14-0, NV-1

Arimminum 3xP1, 3xP3
Passo del Lupo 2xP3, 1xNV
della vittoria alata 3xP1
Brave Heart P1, P3
Yggdrasill P1, P3
dei Navarri 2xP1
Impronta del Lupo 2xP1
al Fiume P1
Casale Orsetti P5
Colle del Lupo P1
della Lacha P1
Impero del Lupo P1
Maly Bysterec P1
z Blatnických vini P3
z Molu Es P3
z Peronówki P1
Zlata Palz P1
(priv. Avoni) P3

My personal Opinion??
1) Again...by the fact that the main judges of Italian club were Soukupova and Jedlicka and the fact that the Czech club came to Italy to make a bointation it's all a matter of POLITICS and DISLIKES!!
2) That looking at bonitation results, there are not much differences between the two, meaning that in Italy, according to bonitation, we don't have many bad dogs.
3) The CSW population in Italy is one of the highest but the weakest in number of dogs bonitated
4) that there are many many Italian CSW owners who disagree with the Club's way...WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY VOTE THEN???
5) I hope there will be another CSW bonitation as successful as the Czech club's one...and I hope the Italian club finally represented the Italian CSW owners...
massimo

[Jimma]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I can not say to mush about the Italian nor the tests in SL or CZ

But this is the MH-test ( Mental Health test) you MUST do whit your CsV before breeding in Sweden...No MH test, No pedigree for your puppies…

There is no Bonitation. (Only) MH test requirement and DNA test to prove the parents of the puppies.

www*youtube*com/watch?v=Am35v-2TURs
www*youtube*com/watch?v=3PQZVQlu62o
www*youtube*com/watch?v=2iCinQ6HKnQ
www*youtube*com/watch?v=tP2tI6d8g88
www*youtube*com/watch?v=G8Ope_lNLGk
www*youtube*com/watch?v=YdMhrMNmPYg


EDIT---

If you want that the links works, its only substitue the red starts * for points .

I´m afraid you are now wrong Mikael. The MH stands for Mentally Dog and is only a DESCRIPTION of the dogs reactions. Its NOT a TEST in any way!! Your dog does not even have to go trough with the description to be declared deskribed. Only if the owner decides to quit the test or if the dog shows fear at the moment with the gunshot the dog is declared not correkt MH and is not allowed for breeding. If the describer decides to break the description the dog is still to be declared described. Every breeding club make up they own spiderdiagram that is supposed to help breeders to see where in the spider the dog they want to use in breeding has its instincts. Every breed has its own spider that shows what is WANTED in the breed so you can compare with your breedingdogs results but also what the dog leaves to the puppies. ( when the puppies goes for their MH) An exampel of this spider for collie http://www.vilda-meduza.se/index_a_kullens_spindel.htm. (We dont have this spider for CsV because we dont have a breedingclub yet to work one out.)

In the Swedish workingdogclub they also got an more advanced TEST that is called Mental Test ( MT) and when the dog either has "very good" in dog show or a exterior description from a showjudge AND got an approved Mental Test the dog got the titel "Korad". This Mental test is for the breeds connected to Swedish workingdogclub ONLY!! And they refused the question from SKK of connecting CsV to them...

// Jimma

[davide.c]

@ woland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6NVx...layer_embedded

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Jimma

I´m afraid you are now wrong Mikael. The MH stands for Mentally Dog and is only a DESCRIPTION of the dogs reactions. Its NOT a TEST in any way!! Your dog does not even have to go trough with the description to be declared deskribed. Only if the owner decides to quit the test or if the dog shows fear at the moment with the gunshot the dog is declared not correkt MH and is not allowed for breeding. If the describer decides to break the description the dog is still to be declared described. Every breeding club make up they own spiderdiagram that is supposed to help breeders to see where in the spider the dog they want to use in breeding has its instincts. Every breed has its own spider that shows what is WANTED in the breed so you can compare with your breedingdogs results but also what the dog leaves to the puppies. ( when the puppies goes for their MH) An exampel of this spider for collie http://www.vilda-meduza.se/index_a_kullens_spindel.htm. (We dont have this spider for CsV because we dont have a breedingclub yet to work one out.)

In the Swedish workingdogclub they also got an more advanced TEST that is called Mental Test ( MT) and when the dog either has "very good" in dog show or a exterior description from a showjudge AND got an approved Mental Test the dog got the titel "Korad". This Mental test is for the breeds connected to Swedish workingdogclub ONLY!! And they refused the question from SKK of connecting CsV to them...

// Jimma

Hmmmm

Skk decided Saarloos and CsV must do this (test) before breeding, as they are WOLF dogs and not just dogs... it has nothing to do whit if they are workingdogs or not on this breeds...

CsV and Saarloos is under Swedish kennel club and not Swedish Working dog club, yes I know... but last I did her it is still a requirement for both Saarloos and CsV to do this (test)... has anything change ??? As the Working dog club did say NO we do not wont CsV as a Working breed in Sweden yet ( or ever)

I do not understand all you did wrote, but I know one do not have to pass whit a good result to be permitted to breed, you just have to show up and do your best on this (test) and get a result, good or bad...

OK, it is not called (Mental Health test) in English, it is called Mentally dog, but to me it still luck like a test of mentality and you get a result that your puppy buyers might wont to se, or am I wrong ???

I do hope it is still a demand for breeding of CsV, but yes I understand if they will take it away as a demand on Saarloos, but the first litter of Saaroos born this year in Sweden parents had to do it, to get there pedigrees from Skk.
Please correct me if I’m wrong or has misunderstand anything

Yes we do not have a specific MH (test) for CsV yet, I think we must do the GSD (test) ?

Very best regards / Mikael