Offspring´s

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

CsV world record in inbreeding ???



Sad and still shocked, regards / Mikael

you are shocked,,, so what are the breed clubs in Europe going to do about it,???????/ hey maybe you will need some of my CWS X WOLF sooner than you think pacino,,,,,

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by solowolf

you are shocked,,, so what are the breed clubs in Europe going to do about it,???????/ hey maybe you will need some of my CWS X WOLF sooner than you think pacino,,,,,

I se your point Pacino but no thanks...

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Numbers of offsprings 10 topplist on CsV born after year 2000.
Whit COI on 5 generations…

47 offsprings ---COI 21,53%---2002.12.31 Baron spod Ïumbiera
48 offsprings ---COI 16,36%---2001.12.03 Batt Malý Bysterec
54 offsprings ---COI 18,16%---2004.01.31 Merlin Crying Wolf
51 offsprings ---COI 9,32%---2000.10.06 Rendy ---Passo del Lupo---
55 offsprings ---COI 12,25%---2001.12.04 Edgar Passo del Lupo
60 offsprings ---COI 7,76%---2004.11.11 Vaicko Passo del Lupo
73 offsprings ---COI 5,22%---2003.04.18 Timber Wolf Arimminum
82 offsprings ---COI 5,22%---2002.10.15 Duncan ---Colle del Lupo---
135 offsprings ---COI 8,35%---2001.04.12 Cutt ---dell'Irco Sortiere---
151 offsprings ---COI 10,20%---2002.10.03 Miky Passo del Lupo

Regards / Mikael

[wolfin]

but about bitch offspring You not wright? who not be bitch who have moore 50 pupps. And thi be same evil.

[Hanka]

It is, why in Czech work breed comission. It is, why we try to keep 7 base bloodlines and much males in every class. We know sotuation in other states. in much country is easy to take two "wolfsih type of wolfdogs " and make pups. But is not easy to keep level of Wright down. We need not new wolves in breed, we need to help to lines what are not much in the World. It is work for clubs, not to produce some pups in wolf type, but very related.....
I know, not in all casses we can make "not related pairs", but we try it.
For example: last my two litters was Wright 1,51 and 3,9.My two next litters will have 4,19 and 4.83. Is it possible, but you must choose good male (good for blood), not only champions with wolf face.

[wolfin]

hmmm, but Hanka You latest litter make only wirh CH and winner,a and make linebreeding IV-IV. Maybe COI be ok but people who cann chceck inbreed variant see others.

p.s. I not atack You, only thake this like example. I think for others people better when we speak about us dogs, others not see atack for hes.
Regards

[Hanka]

I don´t care about his titles, but it is blood what is not in Czech.
It was important for me. Not more.It is his first litter in Czech. He lives far and nobody travel there for mateing. So we will have something "new" here for next breeding. It is good for Wright, or NO?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Hanka

It is, why in Czech work breed comission. It is, why we try to keep 7 base bloodlines and much males in every class. We know sotuation in other states. in much country is easy to take two "wolfsih type of wolfdogs " and make pups. But is not easy to keep level of Wright down. We need not new wolves in breed, we need to help to lines what are not much in the World. It is work for clubs, not to produce some pups in wolf type, but very related.....
I know, not in all casses we can make "not related pairs", but we try it.
For example: last my two litters was Wright 1,51 and 3,9.My two next litters will have 4,19 and 4.83. Is it possible, but you must choose good male (good for blood), not only champions with wolf face.

Exellent work and breedplan(s) Hanka

I really think we nead some international breeding roules,
(recommendations) about COI, total Offspring´s and repeated litters...

I do think that the most breeders do try to keep the COI low,
but it is a question how long this will be possible...
if some breeders make litters whit a COI on 20-50% on 5 generations !!!
And take over 50 Offspring´s ???

Not just the COI on 5 generation is important, but the total pedigee to...

I think we and the clubs better react NOW, not in 4-8 years, then it might be to late !!!

Very best regards / Mikael

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I se your point Pacino but no thanks...

Regards / Mikael

it is good point if you have european wolf, the breed is changing before your eyes in Italy, now the biggest breeders in world and the CWS from here are starting to look different from the dogs from northern Europe, we also have nearly another type altogether being bred in France, but before you breeders from Italy and France give me both barrels on this,, have a look at the photos on this web site and see for youself,, in uk over the years we have seen the Alsation a working breed turn into a hunched back, cow hocked dog with little or no working potential left so much that the Police in uk now import there dogs, i have nothing against showing of dogs but when people start to breed for LOOKS it is disater, going on how dogs look and how many shows it wins is when it starts to go wrong, the cws is working dog, and a good one at that, with spirit and energy and with a character that is hard to match in any breed, out going and loyal , so lets us all work together in keeping it that way, ive seen to many with there tails tucked up to do me a lifetime,
pacino

[Mikael]

Post # 37-1. Originally posted by Nebulosa.

"Repeating matings is different to use a stud.
Omar z krotkovskeho dvora was used in a different data in pretty different conditions for the breed.
I don't agree with his use in this way, I don't agree with the fact that people had use so much some studs as Rep Z pohranicni Straze and Omar z Krotovskeho dvora, when at the same time some dogs with different bloodlines get lost in the time because hole litter of lonely mate die without get used in the breed…"

Post # 37-2. Originally posted by Nebulosa.

"And so, we have here the good character of the stud owner, you as owner will let your dog be used in repeated mates? with females with bad bloodline for him? or let him make inbreeding using him with his daughter?
here enter the good sense and the money question…"

Post # XXX. Originally posted by XXX.

"There is also the consanguinity trouble which is directly related to this point, on 5 generations some Crying Wolf mating have a COI of 25% (as reference brother sister mating gives 25% COI)."

Post # 11. Originally posted by elf.

J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf
Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

Post # 21. Originally posted by elf.

"I have a darker view. It's currently not easy to mate two CsV and get a COI less than 20% on the full pedigree (and I guess nearly impossible less than 15%). Nowadays example, last 5 mating announced on this site: 18.53%, 23.72%, 30.89%, 20.78%, 27.10%. These numbers carry meaning."

Post # 55. Originally posted by Hanka.

" It is, why in Czech work breed comission. It is, why we try to keep 7 base bloodlines and much males in every class. We know sotuation in other states. in much country is easy to take two "wolfsih type of wolfdogs " and make pups. But is not easy to keep level of Wright down. We need not new wolves in breed, we need to help to lines what are not much in the World. It is work for clubs, not to produce some pups in wolf type, but very related.....
I know, not in all casses we can make "not related pairs", but we try it.
For example: last my two litters was Wright 1,51 and 3,9.My two next litters will have 4,19 and 4.83. Is it possible, but you must choose good male (good for blood), not only champions with wolf face."

Post # 72 and 74. Originally posted by fenris.

"Nothing is more a detriment to a breed than pure show-breeding."
"To follow up my prior comment; please have a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7779686.stm"

Post # 78. Originally posted by fenris.

"Inbreeding isnt necessarily the problem, but lack of proper offspring selection. Breeding dogs for "beauty-contests" will lead to genetic problem despite the inbreeding practice done. Breeding for good working dogs require a multitude of qualities. Add to that "vitality", "multiple health-factors", mental characteristics &.c.... Breeding is far more sofisticated than adding up pedigrees and inbreeding coefficients. I know some breeders of domestic animals can be very successful practicing inbreeding. Mother-nature can handle heavy inbreeding in wolf populations thanks to severe natural selection. A problem with CWD is an over-estimation of some show-dogs as "studs" and an under-estimation of some good working-line dogs. How are the offspring tested for satisfactory breed results? The bonitations and working tests should be required for studs and brood bitches of this workingdog breed…"

Post # 61. Originally posted by Mikael.

"I really think we nead some international breeding roules,
(recommendations) about COI, total Offspring´s and repeated litters...

I do think that the most breeders do try to keep the COI low,
but it is a question how long this will be possible...
if some breeders make litters whit a COI on 20-50% on 5 generations !!!
And take over 50 Offspring´s ???

Not just the COI on 5 generation is important, but the total pedigee to...

I think we and the clubs better react NOW, not in 4-8 years, then it might be to late !!!"

Questions…

Post # 17. Originally posted by elf.

"Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ?

About stud dog max offsprings ?
About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ?
HD pedigree rules ?
COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ...
...
What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?

Post # 43. Originally posted by Mikael.

"What kind of inbreeding diseases will show up first,
Are there any common signs to look for ???"

Thanks to all great posts. Best regards / Mikael