socialisation ou danger ????

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by furyos

pour illustrer mes propos .. tiens martial la petite ELYXIR issue de Arys 's oravy et Hitt spod dumberia .. lignee toutes recentes que j importe dans 2 semaines... tu vois un peu ce qu est la selection des lignees ??? (admire le morphotype si tu est "pro" ..)j'ai enormemenbt d'espoir sur cette petite beaute .. mais l 'avenir nous le dira .. je souhaite juste qu elle ressemble a sa mere ..pour info elle est restee dans l elevage d'edit et n'en sort pas pour aller en ballade ... mon role de socialisation commence dans 2 semaines ... amities .. frank (ton fidele ami)

oui , c'est bien cela, je suis content pour toi, fait toi plaisir , et puis lache moi un peu , merci

[furyos]

ha merci martial .. tes compliments me vont droit au coeur ... et oui je sais que je n eleve pas des loup .. mais je me vois pas appele un manoir du 17/18 eme la chienne-louverie .. ca le fait pas tu vois car outre l'elevage dans ces lieux charge d'histoire en terres du nord ... une activite touristique est a l etude .... evenementiel/location /seminaire .. t enverrai une invitation lors de l innauguration si tu veux .... .. longue vie a ton elevage egalement .. mais je n'ai jamais cherche a te nuyire contrairement a toi sur different forum (WD anglais /amicale.. /expo ... etc ...) j ai une memoire d'elephant et n oublie JAMAIS ... contrairement a toi qui semble surfer sur l oubli .... donc juste un petit truc .. evite de faire prendre des risk a ta nichee .. c'etait juste ca le message du depart .. ca c'est envenimer de ton fait .. en attitude irrespectueuse (passe et present)envers erik plante / me leclercq/ mr dupuis thierry /mr jonhson /mme edit molnar /me cornelia keizer et moi meme .... tu vois tu oubli vite la chronologie de tes rancoeurs ... bon week end et fin d annee .. frank

[Margo]

OK, now back to the topic....

Both things are important. From one side you have health of the puppies. From the other side you have the right socialization.

Sure you must care for the puppies... Expecially first 3 weeks are more problematic because the most common diseases can be deadly for puppies at this age... But to be (almost) SURE the puppies will have no contact with pathogenics you must make sterile conditions. The puppies must stay at home, have no contact with people, dogs. You must change the clothes and clean whole body before you join the puppy room. And all this for 4 months. Because not only the first weeks are important but even more problematic can be the time after the vaccinations because the puppies have the lowest among og antibodies. But even after it you can not be sure because some diseases can infect also older puppies... How long the puppy should stay in sterile conditions? So you can be sure it will not get ill... Hmmmm... 8 months should be enough. But do you know how will be a dog which was living seperated for some months?

Now the other side - some diseases (for example herpes) get the puppies from the mother and get infected during the birth. The female can get infected for example on the dog show. So what now? You will no go to any meetings, shows and to the city because the female can get infected?

Now more - do you know how many litters every year we must remove from Wolfdog because all puppies died. do you know also how many puppies do not survive in some kennels? Sometimes it is about 50% of the puppies. And believe me - the puppies are dying not because of the socialization and because of contact with people and dogs... But even if they are separated they die because of different diseases.

Another thing - I know many breeders which cared for the puppies extremly but some of them had ill puppies....

So keeping the puppies separated will not assure you that the puppies will not become ill...

But you can not forget that if you keep puppies in "sure" conditions you will have problems with the right socialization. Puppies which do not have contact with people are later shy and do not have the right connection with people. Puppies which have contact only with the breeder will be later affraid of strangers. If you will separate puppies from other dogs they will (maybe never) not develop the right social connections with other dogs. Most of such puppies have problems with bite control.
I know people which picked up such puppies and were able to stroke them only when the pupp was sleeping (when the puppy was awake it was biting really angry because it was affraid of people). Another case of puppies from such kennel we had in Poland - the new owners took the puppy home and it hided under a bathtub. The puppy was so affraid of strangers that it took 3 days till the puppy decided to come out. And after 2 years it is still not a dog with normal stable character...
If you (as breeders) will miss the socialization it can happen that the dogs will never be NORMAL CzWs...

You say it is wrong to let the 4-weeks puppy to come out... But I know more puppies which were already sold at this age... Here you have a Czech article http://www.csvlcak.cz/readarticle.php?article_id=65 written by Czech breeder and CzW judge which say that the best age to pick up the puppy is 5 weeks. And it is normal that many people in CZ take the puppies home at the age of 5-6 weeks. The puppies have nothing - no deworming, no vaccinations... And the cases that the puppy died after arrival at the new home are really seldom...
I'm against giving away puppies at such age (because of other reasons - mainly the socialization) but for years it was working and nobody saw it is rising the number of dying puppies... I will say more - the puppies living by the new owners going outside for a walk and having contact with other dogs had more chances to survive than when they stayed "seperated from the pathogenics" in the kennels...

I will not advice anybody to take all puppies out and socialize them. And I will also not say - be careful because the puppies can get infected. But all of us must stay with cold heads... If you will leave the puppy separated for the whole time the new owner will get really HANDICAPTED puppy which have problems with people, dogs and shyness. And it is possible the problems will NEVER dissaprear. On the other hand it is clear that the early age and the age between the vaccination is the most problematic and it is good to forbid puppies to have contact with dogs which can be ill and places like dog toilets.

You must always calculate the advantage and disadvantages... and the risks... But you must also remember you will be not able to protect the puppies against everything. And it is not the point the protect the puppies from having contact with pathogenicsbut it is MUCH more important to keep puppies in good condition. Because in the most cases the illnesses "attack" weaker puppies... In the most cases strong puppies will not get ill even if they will have contact with ill dogs....
It is like with flu by people - young people do not care about it but it can be even deadly for older (weaker) people... The same is with dogs...

[freewild]

bonjour

le menteur c'est bien stephj car tu as triché pour avoir glasya alors que c'est une autre personne qui devait l'avoir la triche tu connais j'ai prevenue margo de ce qui allé arrivée pour la maladie effectivement j'ai evoqué l'eventualité du probleme de la clim au depart ca c'est clair il n'empeche que je n'ai pas attendu pour ma part de soigner furcas et en quelques jours cela a été fini .....
apres je fait comme d'ab une visite au veto une fois que j'ai le chiot histoire de verifier .

quand a la socialisation que tu fait ......... je me pose beaucoup de question au vu du cote agressif de tés chiens !

pour furcas malgré son petit soucis la socialisation n'en a pas été arrété pour autant et je ne compte pas l'argent que je met dans mes chiens pas les meme valeur
autre chose glasya n'est pas championne de france ? et passé devant toutes les plus belle chienne ...... elle fait quoi a lyon et a la national ?? premiere ??? il ne me semble pas



en tout cas

tank's margo for had explain all the real story

pour la socialisation je rejoint margo car meme avant de connaitre le CLT les elevages que je connait sorte les chiens en dehors de l'elevage afin de developper au mieux les dispositions a la vie urbaines ..........

mais les idée de socialisations sont diverse et varié billes de couleurs faisant du bruits , differents materiaux .. donc odeur bruits et sensations ....

de quoi developper les chiots jusqu'a ce que les proprio prenent le relais

[stephjj]

Originally Posted by freewild

bonjour

le menteur c'est bien stephj car tu as triché pour avoir glasya alors que c'est une autre personne qui devait l'avoir la triche tu connais j'ai prevenue margo de ce qui allé arrivée pour la maladie effectivement j'ai evoqué l'eventualité du probleme de la clim au depart ca c'est clair il n'empeche que je n'ai pas attendu pour ma part de soigner furcas et en quelques jours cela a été fini .....
apres je fait comme d'ab une visite au veto une fois que j'ai le chiot histoire de verifier .

quand a la socialisation que tu fait ......... je me pose beaucoup de question au vu du cote agressif de tés chiens !

pour furcas malgré son petit soucis la socialisation n'en a pas été arrété pour autant et je ne compte pas l'argent que je met dans mes chiens pas les meme valeur
autre chose glasya n'est pas championne de france ? et passé devant toutes les plus belle chienne ...... elle fait quoi a lyon et a la national ?? premiere ??? il ne me semble pas



en tout cas

tank's margo for had explain all the real story

pour la socialisation je rejoint margo car meme avant de connaitre le CLT les elevages que je connait sorte les chiens en dehors de l'elevage afin de developper au mieux les dispositions a la vie urbaines ..........

mais les idée de socialisations sont diverse et varié billes de couleurs faisant du bruits , differents materiaux .. donc odeur bruits et sensations ....

de quoi developper les chiots jusqu'a ce que les proprio prenent le relais

mon pauvre petit agneau tout blanc...

jai pas tricher le moins du monde on ma dit tu veut une chienne de cette portée !!!
alors moi jai dit oui ou est la triche??

glasya a lyon oui 2ème pas en forme cette fois mais avait battu cette chienne plusieurs fois avant.....

glasya a la NE oui 2ème et la juge a bien dit haut et fort je préfère celle la en citant glasya mais vu sa condition physique je met l'autre 1ère...
glasya ne voulais absolument plus rien manger et mangrisais a vu d'oeil....

et a battu cette chienne peut de temp après...

glasya a battu la championne du monde a chaque rencontre avec elle ,plusieurs fois.....

et pour finir glasya a battu toutes les chiennes de frances et meme a beaucoup a l'étranger (meme se qui lon deja battu une fois....)

alors qui est le menteur rouselét????
qui est de mauvaise fois?????

quand a la socialisation que je fait elle est top et aucun de mes clients sen son pleins sur mes 2 portées (anéli et cheyenne)....
et de plus tu connais quoi en socialisation ???
ta fait tes preuves toi??
ou ça??
je veut voir je suis curieux moi????

occupe toi plutot de tes clt un qui resemble a un malamute
et l'autre qui ressemble a mickey...

et un que tu fait écrasser avec ta méconnaissances de la race (ta méconnaissance en général) et ta mauvaise fois de petit enfant gaté qui na pas u sa sucette ,demande a ta copine travesti il va taranger ça.......

aller donne ton avertissement mon ptit agneau blanc
ou banni moi ...
c'est se qui vous arrange le plus de bannir se qui dérange autant....rien a foutre de toi et de tout les manges miettes .....

[stephjj]

javais editer le mauvais message

[shakespeare]

Originally Posted by Margo

OK, now back to the topic....

Both things are important. From one side you have health of the puppies. From the other side you have the right socialization.

Sure you must care for the puppies... Expecially first 3 weeks are more problematic because the most common diseases can be deadly for puppies at this age... But to be (almost) SURE the puppies will have no contact with pathogenics you must make sterile conditions. The puppies must stay at home, have no contact with people, dogs. You must change the clothes and clean whole body before you join the puppy room. And all this for 4 months. Because not only the first weeks are important but even more problematic can be the time after the vaccinations because the puppies have the lowest among og antibodies. But even after it you can not be sure because some diseases can infect also older puppies... How long the puppy should stay in sterile conditions? So you can be sure it will not get ill... Hmmmm... 8 months should be enough. But do you know how will be a dog which was living seperated for some months?

Now the other side - some diseases (for example herpes) get the puppies from the mother and get infected during the birth. The female can get infected for example on the dog show. So what now? You will no go to any meetings, shows and to the city because the female can get infected?

Now more - do you know how many litters every year we must remove from Wolfdog because all puppies died. do you know also how many puppies do not survive in some kennels? Sometimes it is about 50% of the puppies. And believe me - the puppies are dying not because of the socialization and because of contact with people and dogs... But even if they are separated they die because of different diseases.

Another thing - I know many breeders which cared for the puppies extremly but some of them had ill puppies....

So keeping the puppies separated will not assure you that the puppies will not become ill...

But you can not forget that if you keep puppies in "sure" conditions you will have problems with the right socialization. Puppies which do not have contact with people are later shy and do not have the right connection with people. Puppies which have contact only with the breeder will be later affraid of strangers. If you will separate puppies from other dogs they will (maybe never) not develop the right social connections with other dogs. Most of such puppies have problems with bite control.
I know people which picked up such puppies and were able to stroke them only when the pupp was sleeping (when the puppy was awake it was biting really angry because it was affraid of people). Another case of puppies from such kennel we had in Poland - the new owners took the puppy home and it hided under a bathtub. The puppy was so affraid of strangers that it took 3 days till the puppy decided to come out. And after 2 years it is still not a dog with normal stable character...
If you (as breeders) will miss the socialization it can happen that the dogs will never be NORMAL CzWs...

You say it is wrong to let the 4-weeks puppy to come out... But I know more puppies which were already sold at this age... Here you have a Czech article http://www.csvlcak.cz/readarticle.php?article_id=65 written by Czech breeder and CzW judge which say that the best age to pick up the puppy is 5 weeks. And it is normal that many people in CZ take the puppies home at the age of 5-6 weeks. The puppies have nothing - no deworming, no vaccinations... And the cases that the puppy died after arrival at the new home are really seldom...
I'm against giving away puppies at such age (because of other reasons - mainly the socialization) but for years it was working and nobody saw it is rising the number of dying puppies... I will say more - the puppies living by the new owners going outside for a walk and having contact with other dogs had more chances to survive than when they stayed "seperated from the pathogenics" in the kennels...

I will not advice anybody to take all puppies out and socialize them. And I will also not say - be careful because the puppies can get infected. But all of us must stay with cold heads... If you will leave the puppy separated for the whole time the new owner will get really HANDICAPTED puppy which have problems with people, dogs and shyness. And it is possible the problems will NEVER dissaprear. On the other hand it is clear that the early age and the age between the vaccination is the most problematic and it is good to forbid puppies to have contact with dogs which can be ill and places like dog toilets.

You must always calculate the advantage and disadvantages... and the risks... But you must also remember you will be not able to protect the puppies against everything. And it is not the point the protect the puppies from having contact with pathogenicsbut it is MUCH more important to keep puppies in good condition. Because in the most cases the illnesses "attack" weaker puppies... In the most cases strong puppies will not get ill even if they will have contact with ill dogs....
It is like with flu by people - young people do not care about it but it can be even deadly for older (weaker) people... The same is with dogs...

Thank you Margo, I was trying to explain this from the very beginning of the topic, but since everone is more busy to make fuss than to have a constructive discussion, I'm afraid no one paid attention...