ATTENTION poil ouvert .. defaut chez le clt

[furyos]

bonsoir .. viens de rentrer du taff .. donc il faut comprtendre dans poil ouvert .. bien evidemment un poil atypique et non recherche dans le standard (car non couche a plat etc ;..) ... je sais que ce defaut n est pas nouveau angelika .. mais en france oui .... et ce n 'ai pas de "chercher la petite bete" que d 'avertir l ensemble des lecteurs francais de cette nouvelle apparition .. bien au contraire .. souhaiteriez vous croiser des clt CANICHE a terme dans notre cheptel ?????.. perso pas vraiment .. pour etre la risee de la communaute europeennne clt .. merci bien (on en deboise deja pas mal comme ca sans en rajouter une a la liste des critiques discreditante ...)... ces genes sont issus effectivement de certaines lignees mais tentent a ressurgir depuis sous certaines autres apres 2 ou 3 mariages .. donc je dit JUSTE attention (revoir ma mise en garde svp .. ce n est PAS UN PROCES ... c'est un constat ;.. et a nous autres d'eviter cela ... ) ci joint pics que j' avaient en archive ... (j ai maske volontairement la tete hien et mis juste ce qui est flagrand).. amicalement loup frank

[furyos]

Pour info fabrice ce type de poil ne viens pas d'un lavage mais d un gene ... rien a voir ... effectivement un clt lave de la veille aura une texture trop "appretee" et non recherchee .. mais n'ondulera pas forcement de cette maniere .. apres le" poil ouvert" parce que "poil long" c'est un autre probleme .. mais pas lie a ce gene ci ... bonne reflexion .. f

[freewild]

Originally Posted by furyos

Pour info fabrice ce type de poil ne viens pas d'un lavage mais d un gene ... rien a voir ... effectivement un clt lave de la veille aura une texture trop "appretee" et non recherchee .. mais n'ondulera pas forcement de cette maniere .. apres le" poil ouvert" parce que "poil long" c'est un autre probleme .. mais pas lie a ce gene ci ... bonne reflexion .. f

c'est exactement ce que je dit les juges sauront faire la difference

[mansoif]

Alors Fabrice ta pas d'autres conneries à raconter!!! sur ce chien!!!
Décidément ta rien compris...il est peut-être joli et c'est tout, même pas confirmable.
Son poil ne vaut rien, les "chacals" et les "vautours" tournoyent déjà au tour de lui et il finira peut-être dans un camp...
Mais pas de problème, si je peux " inonder le marché " avec d'identiques problèmes, pas de soucis.
Y a bien des chiens qui ont un masque atypique et c'est idem que pour le poil mais on en fait pas tout un " Munster ".

En colère... non pas du tout mais que certains...

C'est mon poème de ce soir et après tout...

Bonne nuit
Gérard

[furyos]

slt gerard ..il n'y a AUCUN soucis pour la confirmation ... car pas un motif de non confirmation .. juste un element negatif pour la bonitation .... au meme titre que mask noir ou poil long ... la taille /monorchidie ou l absence de dents en france sont des elements incontournables pour un refus de confirmation ...et rien n empeche a ces chiens a "poils ouverts" de faire des expo car celui a l etranger dont j ai montre en archive a deja eu des cac/ ib etc ... mais il faut juste eviter de les faire reproduire en fait ... car pouvant sauter une voir plusieurs generations avec le retour spontane du probleme.. apres chacun fait selon son ame et conscience ... et ca personne n a le droit de juger ce que le voisin a envie de faire ...ca c'est la veritable liberte francaise ... amicalement loup frank

[furyos]

je vous mets en ligne un travail de sonja borgnokova au sujet des qualites et defauts des clt .. perso je m en sert assez regulierement afin de paufiner mes doutes et interrogation sur la vision que j ai du beau ... voila si cela peut aider .. amities lupoides(merci tamara pour l expression ca le fait ... aussi)frankhttp://dl.wolfdog.org/files/Articles/en/Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.ppt

[furyos]

si vous y regarder de plus pres vous pourrez voir a la fin de l etude elle emploie le terme "open hair" .. traduit pour nous en "poil ouvert" .. voila ... la plupart de son son travail est en image sauf pour ce sujet ci malhereusement ... ...(au sujet des levres distendues c'est assez interressant egalement .. car peux ressurgir avec des mariages non adequats)bonne nuit a tous .. frank

[Margo]

Originally Posted by furyos

bien au contraire .. souhaiteriez vous croiser des clt CANICHE a terme dans notre cheptel ?????.. perso pas vraiment ..

I'm sorry but I do not have time to write something bigger (I will make it later). But your words wonder me... You already have the "CANICHE" in France. Expecially you...
Do you want to remove all "problematic" dogs from French breeding? Do you really want to remove ALL offsprings of Orlik (he was a typical "caniche")?
You posted as example the dog on the photo but much better example for this topic would be (beside the photos posted by Nebulosa) the photo of the father of Ossa - Fallko Kollárov dvor. He is pretty known dog in Czech Republic and Slovakia because even the short hairs on his head were curly...

Look - the true is that the line in France with the highest number of "curly coat genes" is Crying Wolf-line (because of strong inbreed on Orlik- he was a real "sheep" and one of the main sources for curly coat by CLC). Even if the curly hair is "hidden" . And it is a base line in your kennel. And you have no problem with breeding dogs from this line and even with making stronger inbreed on Orlik... So why such words and such topic? Because the dog comes from other kennel?

I really do not understand such way of criticizing other breeders... In the fact what is said openly about something (Gérard - huge plus for you as breeder!) is much better that breeding with dogs with hidden problems...
And instead of attacking (even on hidden way) others maybe it would be better to discuss the problems and the ways of breeding?

furyos, You say you would not use dogs with curly hair problems in the line. So why you breed with Ossa and Volos? I'm just curious because this and you words I quoted contradict each other.... And are just hypocrisy....

I don't want to attack you but for me your words have nothing to do with trying to improve the breeding, speaking about the ways and technics of breeding but only an excuse to attack other breeder...

What is the truth? Sure we must pay attention to the problems and try to fight with it. I wrote before that no good breeder in the origin country will make strong inbreed on Orlik - exactly because of the coat problem - with such inbreed you make the "problem coat genes" stronger. That's one thing.
Second - dogs with problematic coat are marked during the bonitation (and breeders do not mate two dogs with the same problems). And dogs which have huge coat problem get P14. But it is only in Czech Republic and Slovakia. In France, Hungary, Germany, Italy and Poland nobody follow it... You just see the photos which in many cases lie...

Other thing - nobody exclude such dogs (if the problem is small) because the type of coat come in the most cases with very good structure of the hair (in many cases better than by other lines) and many offprings of such dogs have very nice rich hair...

If you don't want to use "caniche" dogs .... It is your decision - you can make it but as I wrote:
1) it is a hypocrisy (see above )
2) it make no sense because if you make good connection the offspring will be totally OK when it comes to the hair (and dog from your kennel are the best example).

We have the same experiences - one of our friends mated her female with a male with such curly hair (she decided to do this because of the exceptional character of the dog and great body).
Result: ALL puppies have normal hair (+ the great character and high size of the father).
The same made Edith in 'Crying Wolf' - despite of the curly hair she decided to breed with Fallko and thanks to this we have such great dog as for example Galiba (and you have Ossa, Vally and Volos ).

So do you really STILL want to say using dogs with ANY signs of more open hair are a mistake?

[furyos]

hi margo ...first /happy new year (not hypocrite words but french civility ).. second/ y don't attack anybody .. (if yu reade my post) y speak about a NEW problem y meet with one of my pupp .last year.... not really curly coat but "ondulation"on neck and back ... the father is merlin .. (just one in all mariage's kennel) y m not hypocrite to show here this PROBLEM ;.... sure y try again to use merlin for other females .. but y understand why yu react on .. because this gene from hero'z rofa fromp orlik .. and yu use him .. and really good choice because EXCELLENT quality on this male .. (see yur eligo and my merlin) ... if gerard feel bad about this post .. edit /yu or everybody can !!!! on ossa and wolos not long hair or open coat y think(too young actually) .. but future show me .... y m not THE BEST ..... y learn every day ... and y note this problem last summer in bonitation with monika .... y ask her about that ...and this is NEW in france ... NEVER WE NOTE That before HERE..... 2 cases actually ... y hope no more for us ... because it's not a real good quality... yu know that and don't closed eyes about this ....now y open this subject (and don't show or speak about anybody) ..it's new and it's my work to show that for the future .. like black mask /too white mask( y have 2 pupps from elia with.. and not imbreeding )/long hair /HD / etc ...ect... well margo yu are professional and like this ...yu know that y m not the reference in this breed (or more exactly we can read this on this forum..).. BUT Y TRY TO FIND MY DREAM ..... actually my work is not perfect too but y try to go in a real good way ... y m the "victim"(but y don't care ) from bad rumors and y m so surprised that yu don't do the same intervention to stop it ... when my kennel is on english forum .. a lot of people try to discredite me ;.. and THIS is not hypocrite .. sure ... it's "difamation"!!! well y hope meet yu again to speak with yu ... y try to contact yu to have information to alistair's litter and yu NEVER reply to me ... y can just understand that yu don't want export a pupp for me ... sorry about that .. best regards .. frank

[Margo]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi margo ...first /happy new year (not hypocrite words but french civility ).. second/ y don't attack anybody .. (if yu reade my post) y speak about a NEW problem y meet with one of my pupp .last year.... not really curly coat but "ondulation"on neck and back ...

OK, I stop here.... I will come back soon and answer all other topics - there are great topics on your language version but I have no time at the moment, sorry...

I wrote it because EVERY topic on the forum start as theoretically something good but finish as a fight... Also this one....and it is realy pity!

The problem you mentioned is ok, and we can talk about it. But not when it is about the dogs and breeders... I know there are many hidden things between the breeders in France and I understand why most of the topics start as attack and end with fighting. But because of it the real and INTERESTING problem is ignored....

But to have real good dusscusion lets make some things clear...

1) No fight with other breeders because in the most cases when we find 10 faults by other breeders the attacked person can write also 10 faults by our dogs... Because all dogs have faults...

2) Every breeder can make mistakes and sometimes even the best connetions can give very bad results.... Only person who do not breed do not make mistakes...

3) Of course I have nothing against writing about breeders which ONLY make mistakes... But only if the critics include the sulution for a problem...

4) And it makes me really angry when I read that a dog is sharply attacked because of characteristics which are not even a fault but only a scarcity. And the dog is attacked by a breeder which breeds with dogs which really have dissqualification faults (for being clear I do not mean you and this topic).
For long time the laudest people on forum were people who have very low knowledge about the breed standard. And they attacked other almost for nothing.... In the most cases simply because they had no IDEA about what is really a fault and what is really important by CzW....

5) There are NO "ugly" dogs which should not to be bred with! EVERY dog have pluses and minuses. And the difference between good and bad breeder is that good breeder knows the faults and try to make the puppies looking better or much better than the parents.
And bad breeder is a person who believe to have such perfect dogs that they do not need any improvement. And who mate them with other "perfect" dogs when in the reality his dogs are only average or poor quality and the puppies also...
In the history there were many Wolfdogs which were "ugly" looking but thanks to wise matings gave very nice offprings and people really LOVE their lines now... There are so many dogs which were criticized by other breeders in their times but now they are sometimes called to be dogs which "saved" the breed...
Such "ugly" dogs criticized by some breeders were Milo Ruskov dvor (known now for the offsprings with great HD-results and character), Tambury z Rosikova, Kondor z Krotkovskeho dvora and Hero z Rofa (known for the wolfish look by the offsprings), Carr Maly Bysterec (know for yellow eyes, nice look and characters by his puppies), Orlik z Rosikova (known for yellow eyes and nice heads), Ali Reolup (know for great look and HD-results). And I can write much more males. ALL these dogs were attacked by some breeders which were screaming "I will never use this dog"...
It made me laugh when the biggest enemies went to cover their females by these males or their offsprings...


Because of fighting people stop to write about any problems and exchange information. And what is told behing the back is much worser than the open posts written on official forum...
I know it - we had the same situation in Poland. All people writing on the forum were attacked by one of the breeders. If your puppies was pissing at home you were called as bad owner. If you dog was not walking on the leash - you are bad owner. The dog is not standing still on the dog show - you are bad owner and bad breeder... It was long time so and people were affraid till it came out that the worstest dogs with worstest behaviour on the dog shows and most shy toward people are the dog of.. the breeder who attacked other people...
Sorry but all you can do is just to ignore such trolls. And write...
And we will try to kick out all people which only write accusation but no facts and nothing which can be usefull and helpfull...

Now I will have finally more time to write so if anybody has any questions I will try to answer them. Calm....
On the other side I'm really interested in the French population of CzW - beside the Slovakian dogs it seems to me to be second most interesting source of great dogs... Really great work - not so long time ago I was writing to the polish kennel club magazine about the "French jackals" promoted by one of the main kennels in FR and now...I would have to remove the word "French" because such weak build dogs are almost no more visible here.... (I hope the same will be in Poland and also the wolfdogs in the "Czech-Polish Shepherd Dog" type will also dissappear... )

[ArImInIuM]

etant donné mon anglais mediocre..... voir innexistant je vais avoir du mal à traduire tout ça ...
si je comprends bien, ce que nous trouvons être des "tares" disons de petites imperfections qu'il faurait eviter ne le sont pas aux yeux de certains et inversement??

[furyos]

En fait margo tiens a souligner que certains defauts peuvent etre corriges assez rapidement si lo on etudie de pret les lignees et en essayant d'y trouver des solutions .... que les guerre entre eleveurs doivent cesser .. car meme ceux critiquant a l epoque certains chiens ils s'est avere que c'est dernier ont transmis d excellent genes ... certes certains defaut ne sont pas a negliger ... mais il faut rectifier en ECHANGEANT eT SE CONCERTANT entre nous ... voila en resume succin ... aussi pour finir en positif .. margo trouve notre cheptel evoluant dands une bonne direction en peu de temps et le souligne ....

[furyos]

desole suis creve et c'est blinde de fautes .... pas de relecture ...