Avvistati lupi nella mia zona

[Giovanni Todaro]

Visto che Pongo mi ha posto un quesito, al quale ho risposto, ma vedendo che altri giustamente chiedono sul fatto della possibilità di visitare parchi o altro nei quali i responsabili fanno entrare in contatto visitatori con lupi ritenuti (fino a quel momento) affidabili, vi posto questo, riassumendo "in situazioni pericolose tutto può capitare, a prescindere da ciò che vi dicono gli altri". Riassumendo, si parla della latente pericolosità degli incroci di prima generazione cane/lupo e nello specifico dei lupi "mansueti" fatti socializzare con le persone. Uno di questi (come nel parco citato nel post prima) era un pacioccone, di colpo però è cambiato. Mai fidarsi.

A proposito della pericolistà dei lupi in cattività e degli incroci F1 cane/lupo

In the state of Michigan wolf hybrids are less common than in other states, but they do exist. One such hybrid was kept on a chain in the back yard, but well away from the house. This animal was reportedly good with children and the owners had no reservations about allowing children to play with or around him. On the 15 of March, 1990, a friend of the animal's owner came over to visit and brought her 2-year-old child. The child had previously "played" with the hybrid and there had been no problems. While the mother was visiting, she put her child into the back yard. Shortly afterward they noticed the animal shaking something -- that something was the child. Most of the throat was torn out; the child was nearly decapitated. So what happened? How could such a tragedy take place? Wolves, dogs and hybrids all have the potential for killing. It is part of what they, as predators, do for a living. Have you even wondered why children are told never to run around dogs, especially if they are strange dogs? Running is one of the things that elicits or "triggers" predatory behavior. Also, there is a specific threshold for the elicitation of the behavior that varies from animal to animal.
So, can a "pet wolf" be good with children? Well, that depends on what one means by "good". There are many wolf hybrids, and some pure wolves for that matter, that have shown great tolerance and even pleasure in interacting with kids. However, at least in the sense that a dog that is good with children, can be fully trusted with them, a hybrid often cannot, a wolf never so. The reason you cannotever trust a pure wolf with children is because of the aforementioned lower threshold for the trigger mechanism regarding predation and the lack of any alteration of their predatory behavior once the trigger is released. Importantly, I must emphasize that these behaviors are genetically encoded -- they cannot be eliminated by "proper socialization" or "training"; at best they can only be suppressed.
As an example of the power of this behavior, at Wolf Park we have a wolf, Imbo, who until he was six years old, was exceptionally good with children. He essentially viewed kids as super puppies -- they would scratch his ears, rub his back, and wouldn't even food beg! Then one day, late in the summer of 1987, Imbo saw a young child throw a tantrum. Imbo watched with interest as this child, about 20 feet away, was on the ground kicking and screaming. Then, only a week later, a child with Tourettes syndrome visited and Imbo watched as she flailed her arms about and made interesting noises. Again this was from a distance. Since we only allow wolves to greet children while we walk them on leashes, Imbo had no opportunity to "test" either situation further. Soon after this, we could see a change in Imbo. A friend brought her infant out and laid the child on a blanket within sight of the wolves. A few weeks before, Imbo would have approached the fence, head lowered, ears back -- in a submissive manner as wolves typically do when they are approaching puppies. However, this time it was different. Imbo rushed up, ears pricked, and then ran excitedly back and forth along the fence, as though he were expecting food! It was very clear that Imbo's perception of children had changed, dramatically so -- and this change occurred just through observation. He was simply exposed to the proper releasing stimulus and what he had treated as wolf pups, he now viewed as prey. Of course his days as a PR wolf were over. The important thing to realize is that your pet, or your friend's pet, may change. It may do so very quickly and it may do so with very, very tragic results. What all of this means is, a wolf who is very friendly and sociable with people still has the potential of attacking if the proper trigger is released.
I know are, to some extent at least, cautious about allowing their hybrids access to children. Those with pure wolves are even more cautious. Many with pures do not allow any contact with children at all; those that do hold the wolf on a leash. Of course, there are many hybrids that are good with children, even some pure wolves (as was Imbo). However, of the animals that I've seen or have heard of that are (or were) good with children, most are low in wolf content or are very young. The few exceptional animals are just that, exceptional.
If the animals take keen interest in the child, orienting to it with an intense stare, or even if they just have their ears pricked, their tails up, their hackles up, or they run along the fence excitedly, those animals are potentially dangerous around small children. If on the other hand the animals make a slow submissive approach, ears laid back, tail partially tucked and show all the friendly behaviors that they show when they are shown pups, the animals are probably safe at least under supervision. However, I must emphasize, this does not mean that they will also be safe around children who run, fall, scream or in any way trigger that predatory response, or that they will even be safe around children all their lives. (Again, remember Imbo was six years old before he changed and he is but one of many "PR" wolves that I know of that has "changed" and can no longer freely greet the public.)
Note: The author is the Staff Photographer, Wolf Behavior Specialist, consultant, and Wolf Park's web site webmaster, at Wolf Park, Battle Ground, IN 47920 www.wolfpark.org

[Tatanka1094]

Ho trovato in un altro forum una discussione simile a questa ed è riportata una testimonianza interessante di una americana su lupi e ibridi lupi-cani:

ho una certa esperienza con i cani_lupo,essendo cresciuta in una comunità hippie dove tali ibridi erano comuni.ho poi approfondito l'argomento,quando,col passare del tempo,avevo deciso di adottarne uno.c'è molta disinformazione al riguardo.non sono così imprvedibili,a patto di conoscere il comportamento del lupo,e non sono pericolosi per l'uomo.non sono buoni guardiani,ne pastori,ne cani-guida....
per capire i cani-lupo,occorre conoscere i lupi "addomesticati" dall'uomo.quello che potete aspettarvi da un lupo è quello che anche gli ibridi vi danno,anche se le potenzialità risultano un po' diluite.

istinto predatorio.i lupi sono predatori.la loro esistenza stessa si basa sulla capacità e il desiderio di uccidere.anche dopo una accurata socializzazione,,nessun animale che il lupo considera preda è al sicuro vicino a lui.

timidezza.i lupi temono l'uomo,e in generale non amano nemmeno i loro stessi simili.con la crescita la timidezza aumenta, e sono sempre meno tolleranti.verso i cani ciò si traduce in aggressività,verso l'uomo in paura e allontanamento.è interessante notare che i pochi soggetti che riescono a superare la paura diventano molto socievoli verso la gente.non ho mai incontrato lupi (ne ibridi) aggressivi verso l'uomo...o ne fuggono, oppure gli fanno le feste...ecco perchè non sono buoni guardiani.

intelligenza.i lupi sono davvero molto,molto intelligenti...riescono ad aprire porte, superare ostacoli,ottenere quasi sempre quello che vogliono.

curiosità. i lupi trascorrono gran parte della loro vita esplorando il territorio.un cane-lupo tenuto rinchiuso fuggirà.anche quelli ospitati in recinti vasti e sicuri arrivano a scavare trincee nel loro incessante cercare una via di fuga.possono essere molto distruttivi verso le cose.

indipendenza.chi ha famigliarità con le razze nordiche sa di cosa sto parlando,ma negli ibridi di lupo la cosa è portata a livelli estremi.la loro intelligenza li porta ad imparare velocemente i comandi,ma per loro sapere cosa voi volete e decidere di farlo richiede molto tempo,pazienza e continui rinforzi positivi.la cosa è complicata dalla loro bassa soglia di attenzione...l'addestramento li stufa presto.

socialità.i lupi sono animali fortemente sociali,e si legano strettamente al loro branco umano.lasciati soli anche per periodi brevi (poco più di un'ora...)inizieranno ad ululare e ad esibire comportamenti distruttivi e di fuga.
aggressività verso i cani.è alta nei lupi...meno che nei molossoidi tipo pit, ma certo costituisce un problema.di solito finisce male per il cane.

sfida. attenzione.non mi è mai capitato di osservare il fenomeno,ma occorre prestare attenzione.i lupi si sfidano e combattono per il loro ruolo nel branco.se trasferissero tael comportamento verso l'uomo,sarebbe pericolosissimo.una corretta gestione,inflessibile,ma gentile,solitamente previene il problema...ma occore tenerlo sempre presente.

quanto detto precedentemente dimostrerebbe che i lupi sarebbero pessimi animali da compagnia per la stragrande maggioranza delle persone.una minor percentuale di sangue di lupo nelle successive generazioni di ibridi diluisce i caratteri.

altro fatto importante è considerare quale razza di cane si è ibridata con il lupo.ho trovato gli incroci di PT più problematici degli incroci con razze nordiche.se la timidezza del lupo cancella solitamente l'aggressività verso l'uomo di certi cani,poi,sarebbe certo una pessima idea combinare razze predisposte all'aggressività (tipo il caucaso) con la predatorietà,l'intelligenza e la natura indipendente del lupo....
non penso che la pratica di ibridare cani e lupi sia da continuare,ne da incoraggiare. è una sorta di "lotteria genetica" nella quale a perdere è quasi sempre l'animale.

[Floydredcrow]

Originally Posted by Giovanni Todaro

Visto che Pongo mi ha posto un quesito, al quale ho risposto, ma vedendo che altri giustamente chiedono sul fatto della possibilità di visitare parchi o altro nei quali i responsabili fanno entrare in contatto visitatori con lupi ritenuti (fino a quel momento) affidabili, vi posto questo, riassumendo "in situazioni pericolose tutto può capitare, a prescindere da ciò che vi dicono gli altri". Riassumendo, si parla della latente pericolosità degli incroci di prima generazione cane/lupo e nello specifico dei lupi "mansueti" fatti socializzare con le persone. Uno di questi (come nel parco citato nel post prima) era un pacioccone, di colpo però è cambiato. Mai fidarsi.

A proposito della pericolistà dei lupi in cattività e degli incroci F1 cane/lupo

In the state of Michigan wolf hybrids are less common than in other states, but they do exist. One such hybrid was kept on a chain in the back yard, but well away from the house. This animal was reportedly good with children and the owners had no reservations about allowing children to play with or around him. On the 15 of March, 1990, a friend of the animal's owner came over to visit and brought her 2-year-old child. The child had previously "played" with the hybrid and there had been no problems. While the mother was visiting, she put her child into the back yard. Shortly afterward they noticed the animal shaking something -- that something was the child. Most of the throat was torn out; the child was nearly decapitated. So what happened? How could such a tragedy take place? Wolves, dogs and hybrids all have the potential for killing. It is part of what they, as predators, do for a living. Have you even wondered why children are told never to run around dogs, especially if they are strange dogs? Running is one of the things that elicits or "triggers" predatory behavior. Also, there is a specific threshold for the elicitation of the behavior that varies from animal to animal.
So, can a "pet wolf" be good with children? Well, that depends on what one means by "good". There are many wolf hybrids, and some pure wolves for that matter, that have shown great tolerance and even pleasure in interacting with kids. However, at least in the sense that a dog that is good with children, can be fully trusted with them, a hybrid often cannot, a wolf never so. The reason you cannotever trust a pure wolf with children is because of the aforementioned lower threshold for the trigger mechanism regarding predation and the lack of any alteration of their predatory behavior once the trigger is released. Importantly, I must emphasize that these behaviors are genetically encoded -- they cannot be eliminated by "proper socialization" or "training"; at best they can only be suppressed.
As an example of the power of this behavior, at Wolf Park we have a wolf, Imbo, who until he was six years old, was exceptionally good with children. He essentially viewed kids as super puppies -- they would scratch his ears, rub his back, and wouldn't even food beg! Then one day, late in the summer of 1987, Imbo saw a young child throw a tantrum. Imbo watched with interest as this child, about 20 feet away, was on the ground kicking and screaming. Then, only a week later, a child with Tourettes syndrome visited and Imbo watched as she flailed her arms about and made interesting noises. Again this was from a distance. Since we only allow wolves to greet children while we walk them on leashes, Imbo had no opportunity to "test" either situation further. Soon after this, we could see a change in Imbo. A friend brought her infant out and laid the child on a blanket within sight of the wolves. A few weeks before, Imbo would have approached the fence, head lowered, ears back -- in a submissive manner as wolves typically do when they are approaching puppies. However, this time it was different. Imbo rushed up, ears pricked, and then ran excitedly back and forth along the fence, as though he were expecting food! It was very clear that Imbo's perception of children had changed, dramatically so -- and this change occurred just through observation. He was simply exposed to the proper releasing stimulus and what he had treated as wolf pups, he now viewed as prey. Of course his days as a PR wolf were over. The important thing to realize is that your pet, or your friend's pet, may change. It may do so very quickly and it may do so with very, very tragic results. What all of this means is, a wolf who is very friendly and sociable with people still has the potential of attacking if the proper trigger is released.
I know are, to some extent at least, cautious about allowing their hybrids access to children. Those with pure wolves are even more cautious. Many with pures do not allow any contact with children at all; those that do hold the wolf on a leash. Of course, there are many hybrids that are good with children, even some pure wolves (as was Imbo). However, of the animals that I've seen or have heard of that are (or were) good with children, most are low in wolf content or are very young. The few exceptional animals are just that, exceptional.
If the animals take keen interest in the child, orienting to it with an intense stare, or even if they just have their ears pricked, their tails up, their hackles up, or they run along the fence excitedly, those animals are potentially dangerous around small children. If on the other hand the animals make a slow submissive approach, ears laid back, tail partially tucked and show all the friendly behaviors that they show when they are shown pups, the animals are probably safe at least under supervision. However, I must emphasize, this does not mean that they will also be safe around children who run, fall, scream or in any way trigger that predatory response, or that they will even be safe around children all their lives. (Again, remember Imbo was six years old before he changed and he is but one of many "PR" wolves that I know of that has "changed" and can no longer freely greet the public.)
Note: The author is the Staff Photographer, Wolf Behavior Specialist, consultant, and Wolf Park's web site webmaster, at Wolf Park, Battle Ground, IN 47920 www.wolfpark.org

Grazie per le vostre risposte,
Giovanni questo che hai scritto è molto interessante .
a parte il fatto che quella mamma è stata una vera incoscente perche un bambino non si deve lasciare mai solo nemmeno con un cane
figuriamoci con un lupo,robe da matti.
mi ha fatto chiarezza questo articolo sull'istinto predatorio,è molto chiaro chi scrive (anche se con il traduttore dell'inglese non so se ho tradotto alla perfezione purtoppo l'inglese lo so poco e niente)
Comunque hanno descritto la corsa come uno stimolo x i predatori di caccia e questo è molto vero,da applicare anche con i cani come i nostri,quando qui vengono i bimbi a casa nostra o miei cugini o il bimbo della mia migliore amica dico sempre non correre fai pianino perche se no blesk si agita e loro sanno che cosi devono fare.
Mi ha colpita la frase che ce scritta su questo discorso che possono attaccare anche se non sono affamati ma stimolati dalla predazione come i cacciatori che cacciano non x necessita ma x cacciare.è stato un esempio molto chiaro,
Sopratutto il fatto che anche se socializzato tantissimo potrebbe attaccare ,mi ha fatta pensare quello che scrivono riguardo la storia del lupo che vedeva il bimbo come cucciolo ma poi è cambiato qualsosa..hanno evidenziato che il lupo osserva tantissimo e il bimbo che prima sentiva come un cucciolo di lupo tempo dopo mentre il lupo lo osservava ha avuto atteggiamenti da "preda"e il lupo semplicemente vedendo quell'atteggiamento non lo ha piu visto come" cucciolo" ma come "preda" sono cose che fanno riflettere
Credo comunque e spero ogni centro ,park ecc dove hanno i lupi che sono a contatto con persone ecc prima preparino le persone a rispettarli e mantenere un'atteggiamento equilibrato.

copio la traduzione dell'articolo che ha messo qui giovanni per chi non sa l'inglese come me l'ho trovata molto interessante davvero.
Ti ringrazio.

[Floydredcrow]

Questo testo il traduttore in italiano non me lo fa copiare mi escono le parole in inglese ma l'ho copiato in altro sistema,
spero lo vediate è moltò interessante e credo utile per chi ha bambini da avere sempre degli accorgimenti,perche non vale solo x i lupi ma anche x i cani cosi credo










Continua...

[Floydredcrow]

[Floydredcrow]

è un po da leggere lo so ma è interesante