CW in the UK

[Juniorwolf]

For me problem is not European or American wolf, but about regulations !
If you are a recognized breeder(does`nt matter what breed), you are not allowed to use your pedigree dogs to crossbreeding/mixbreeding, as it will discredit the big work there have been done to create the breed and undermine the the work of the kennel clubs all over, to make sure the recognized breeders is working for the better of the specific breed.
...At least this is how it works in Denmark

For me crossbreeding and mixbreeding is the same, only names are different

Hybrids is really not a valid word to use, when speaking of mix/cross between wolves and domesticated dogs.
From a biological point of weiw, a hybrid is the name of the ofspring from two different species, wolves and domesticated dogs are the same species(eurasian wolf = canis lupus lupus / domesticated dog = canis lupus familiaris)

I like all dogs, wolfdogs more than other dogs and wolves most of all

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Mikael, Crossbreed means crossing a wolf with a dog! Saarloos people say there is no Timber wolf in Saarloos. The first wolf was a europaen russian wolf which Saarloos took.

It seems that you don´t know much about europaen wolves, do you?! One of the biggest europaen wolf was a carpartian male with 90 cm in shoulder! And the colour? Brown colour, it is the same you find it too by carpartian wolves.

So if I understand you right you would even mix a siberian tiger with an indian tiger, or an indian elephant with an african elephant? Nort american wolves are different. For example they have at least 5 different colours, like black, white, grey, red, brown. Do you find these colours in europaen wolf? No, of course not! Different types but most is grey, with yellow, brown, a bit red, but always look like grey! In grey amercan wolves there are always different colours. They are different from behaviour. Sure for a person like you a wolf is a wolf. Please dream on.

Christian

Crossing a csw with a wolf is not 50 % wolfblood but normally about 65 %. Sure it is mathematics and the case is the F 1 is the main problem. And Paul did sell one of his pups to germany. And it would be not nice if this guy will bring this F 1 in csw population.

As Rolf already did say wolf and dog are from the same family not as you say

These are totally different "breeds"! / Christian

And I do not se way the offsprings from the F1 puppy Paul did sell to Germany would end up as a CsV more then the offsprings of a Saarloos, husky, wolf or a GSD in any country from any breeder

But as you did say your self "DREAM ON"

Best regards / Mikael

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

As Rolf already did say wolf and dog are from the same family not as you say

I think you two guy misunderstood eachother....

Christian was writing about european and american wolves are differet breeds ...not wolves and dogs

Mikael animals from same family can be different breeds, don`t mix this up

Wolves belong to the family "Canidae" which also includes :
Canis
Vulpes
Dusicyon
Lycaon
...and more.

The genus type of wolves is "canis" which also includes :
Lupus
Rufus
Latrans
Aureus
Simensis
...and more.

The species of wolves is "canis lupus" which includes :
Lupus(grey wolf) - ancestor of all wolves.

Canis lupus aka grey wolf have some subspecies which includes :
canis lupus lupus(eurasian wolf)
canis lupus lycaon(east american timber wolf)
canis lupus arctos(artic wolf)
canis lupus pallipes(indian wolf)
canis lupus signatus(iberian wolf)
canis lupus occidentalis(canadian wolf)
canis lupus dingo(dingo)
canis lupus familiaris(domesticated dog)
...and more.

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

I think you two guy misunderstood eachother....

Christian was writing about european and american wolves are differet breeds ...not wolves and dogs

Mikael animals from same family can be different breeds, don`t mix this up

Wolves belong to the family "Canidae" which also includes :
Canis
Vulpes
Dusicyon
Lycaon
...and more.

The genus type of wolves is "canis" which also includes :
Lupus
Rufus
Latrans
Aureus
Simensis
...and more.

The species of wolves is "canis lupus" which includes :
Lupus(grey wolf) - ancestor of all wolves.

Canis lupus aka grey wolf have some subspecies which includes :
canis lupus lupus(eurasian wolf)
canis lupus lycaon(east american timber wolf)
canis lupus arctos(artic wolf)
canis lupus pallipes(indian wolf)
canis lupus signatus(iberian wolf)
canis lupus occidentalis(canadian wolf)
canis lupus dingo(dingo)
canis lupus familiaris(domesticated dog)
...and more.

Greetings Rolf

Yes maybe but as I understand there are all Canis Lupus and not Totaly differant breeds at least and therefore there is no Hybrid´s in dogs neather, scientificly spoken that is...

But I my self would not cross them at all, but I do not se the reasan way Christian think it is totaly wrong, to cross American wolf to CsV but OK to cross European wolf to GSD ???

To me it is OK if it is done by an expert on cross breeding !!! how ever that is very rear but I´m very glad that people before us have cross breed otherwise there would not be any CsV or Saarloos today, or am I wrong

I like CsV but also (unpure) dog breeds like Husky mixes, Alaskan Husky, Tamaskan dog, Tamaskan Wolfdog, American Wolfdog and Swedish Wolfdog, but I will newer cross my CsV whit any of them or a wolf !!!

And I like wolves to much to bring then out of the woods

Best regards / Mikael

[nanouk]

Sorry for the off topic

Lennart Saarloos did cross in his neighbours Timber Wolf to get the big size and therefore the brown colors in that breed still today

Most reliable SWH sources will tell you that Leendert Saarloos DID not cross a Timber into the breed, the brown colour could simply come from the GSD
A colour which is offcourse frowned apon by GSD-breeders but one that in rare occasions does show its face

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes maybe but as I understand there are all Canis Lupus and not Totaly differant breeds at least and therefore there is no Hybrid´s in dogs neather, scientificly spoken that is...

GSD and Rottweiler is also canis lupus, but very different
True hybrids are only ofspring from two different species...

Originally Posted by Mikael

But I my self would not cross them at all, but I do not se the reasan way Christian think it is totaly wrong, to cross American wolf to CsV but OK to cross European wolf to GSD ???

I can not speak for Christian, but to me the difference was :
When European wolf and GSD were crossed it was done by experienced people and with a purpose, and with a very strict selection.
Crossing american wolf and CSW will have no purpose, or what is the whole idea about it ?
When you are a recognized breeder of CSW, you should not use your CSW`s for crossbreeding, if you as a recognized breeder want to breed crosses(does`nt matter what breeds) you should not use dogs from your own kennel, to me that is the main difference.

Originally Posted by Mikael

To me it is OK if it is done by an expert on cross breeding !!! how ever that is very rear but I´m very glad that people before us have cross breed otherwise there would not be any CsV or Saarloos today, or am I wrong

Both SWH and CSW was crossbreeds between wolf and GSD for a purpose, to create a new breed(CSW was only an experiment in the beginning, but later on it was for creating a new breed), do you think the world need more breeds of wolfdogs ? or do you know another good purpose why to crossbreed CSW and wolf ?

Originally Posted by Mikael

I like CsV but also (unpure) dog breeds like Husky mixes, Alaskan Husky, Tamaskan dog, Tamaskan Wolfdog, American Wolfdog and Swedish Wolfdog, but I will newer cross my CsV whit any of them or a wolf !!!

And I like wolves to much to bring then out of the woods

Best regards / Mikael

Christian also have an Canadian wolfdog(a VERY beautyful one), but I am pretty sure, that he will never cross it with anything else, than other American/Canadian wolfdogs, just like i am pretty sure that he will never cross his CSW`s whit anything else than CSW`s.

Greetings Rolf

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by nanouk

Sorry for the off topic


Most reliable SWH sources will tell you that Leendert Saarloos DID not cross a Timber into the breed, the brown colour could simply come from the GSD
A colour which is offcourse frowned apon by GSD-breeders but one that in rare occasions does show its face

I did not say it is a fact, a fact is however that nobody today know if or if not he did mix in that very dog and I as many other think he did, way would he not ??? as Lennart Saarloos was very bad at keeping records I ges we will newer know, if not DNA will tell us in the future a fact is however that there is not to many pure Saarloos in the world today as they are crosst out whit CsV but that is nothing that we do talk about is it... and it is not only in the UK...

/ Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by rolf

Do you think the world need more breeds of wolfdogs ? or do you know another good purpose why to crossbreed CSW and wolf ?

Greetings Rolf

No I think that other them to mix in new gene´s to the breeds that we already have today it is not realy necessary to mix whit wolf, however there is many reasans to mix out the wolves mixes whit dogs...

But I agree, FCI say you are not as a FCI kennel to mix breed your pure dogs !!!

And as I already did say, I think mixing whit wolves are to be done by experts on mixbreeding if it is to be done at all...

Best regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

And as I already did say, I think mixing whit wolves are to be done by experts on mixbreeding if it is to be done at all...

First of all (if at all), such mixbreeding would have to be done with the agreement and under close supervison of the Slovakian Kennel Club - or whatever you call the body that has legal rights to decide about the development of the breed!!! Any other attempts of cross-breeding wolves into the breed is morally wrong! Especially if the attempts are conducted without close cooperation with breeding advisors and top breed specialists, e.g. people who bonitated and judged lots of dogs, bred many litters, etc. from several coutries - especially the countries of the breed origin- also with scientists in dogs' genetics, experienced vets and dog trainers. If CSV is to remain a working, not just a show breed, as K. Hartl meant it to be, dogs' training potential/abilites would be one of the major selection criterium.

If a carpathian wolf blood (because CSV stems from a hybrid of GSD and a CARPATHIAN WOLF!) is to be added to the breed genetic pool:
1. a proper, at least 20-30 year project should be designed, discussed and agreed upon by above mentioned experts and legal authorities including FCI!
2. clear objectives of the project should be stated and made public and transparent
3. institution or a group of people (?) legally responsible for the project implementation would have to be appointed
4. an international "control board" should be appointed.
3. massive funds should be raised/sposnsors found (?) for this purpose including:

- foundation of a wofldog park, where all hybrids that for various reasons would not used for further breeding would find shelter and could lead decent lives,
- opening of a training station where the "hybrids" would be intensly trained and tested. Only these creatures that pass tough exams and fulfil other tough appearance, character and health criteria could be used for further breeding
- well equiped vet clinic should be opened /appointed where the dogs should be carefully examined, also towards genetic diseases.

Still one should be aware that there will be high costs of such an "exepriment": e.g. a fresh wolf blood insertion into CSV breed may lead to further bans of the breed in the countries like UK, Sweden etc.,

I belive that any other ways of mixbreeding CSV with wolves is amateur, secretive, unprofessional and thus wrong -whether conducted in the UK, France, Italy or the Czech Republic (the Mutaragate) or wherever.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

First of all (if at all), such mixbreeding would have to be done with the agreement and under close supervison of the Slovakian Kennel Club - or whatever you call the body that has legal rights to decide about the development of the breed!!! Any other attempts of cross-breeding wolves into the breed is morally wrong! Especially if the attempts are conducted without close cooperation with breeding advisors and top breed specialists, e.g. people who bonitated and judged lots of dogs, bred many litters, etc. from several coutries - especially the countries of the breed origin- also with scientists in dogs' genetics, experienced vets and dog trainers. If CSV is to remain a working, not just a show breed, as K. Hartl meant it to be, dogs' training potential/abilites would be one of the major selection criterium.

If a carpathian wolf blood (because CSV stems from a hybrid of GSD and a CARPATHIAN WOLF!) is to be added to the breed genetic pool:
1. a proper, at least 20-30 year project should be designed, discussed and agreed upon by above mentioned experts and legal authorities including FCI!
2. clear objectives of the project should be stated and made public and transparent
3. institution or a group of people (?) legally responsible for the project implementation would have to be appointed
4. an international "control board" should be appointed.
3. massive funds should be raised/sposnsors found (?) for this purpose including:

- foundation of a wofldog park, where all hybrids that for various reasons would not used for further breeding would find shelter and could lead decent lives,
- opening of a training station where the "hybrids" would be intensly trained and tested. Only these creatures that pass tough exams and fulfil other tough appearance, character and health criteria could be used for further breeding
- well equiped vet clinic should be opened /appointed where the dogs should be carefully examined, also towards genetic diseases.

Still one should be aware that there will be high costs of such an "exepriment": e.g. a fresh wolf blood insertion into CSV breed may lead to further bans of the breed in the countries like UK, Sweden etc.,

I belive that any other ways of mixbreeding CSV with wolves is amateur, secretive, unprofessional and thus wrong -whether conducted in the UK, France, Italy or the Czech Republic (the Mutaragate) or wherever.

Hello

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

FCI say NO, but Paul lives in UK and aperantly it is OK by DEFRA or UK law to mix wolves X dog or Wolves X wolfdog...

But it has nothing to do whit CsV as a breed as non of this offsprings will ever be CsV, like whit the mutara...

But as I say again, in my opinion NO new mixing whit wolves is necessary to create a new breed, but if I think like you, it is to be done by experts in cross breeding only !!!

Best regards / Mikael

[loco]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And Paul did sell one of his pups to germany. And it would be not nice if this guy will bring this F 1 in csw population.

OK also for here the big "??????" already asked the same "??????" on the Dutchforum ;
Is it possible this one F1 wolfdog that is in Germany can ever come in the CSW breed and have offspring with a pedigree that says it is a CSW ???
If yes, is this legal ???
If yes, is this also possible in other European country's ???
If yes, is this also possible for other breeds ???


Groette Martine.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

Ok, I understand now.

But I remember somebody mentioning here (though I don't remember who exactly it was) that a further wolfblood should be added to the CSV breed to avoid inbreeding and heredic diseases. I don't know if the person (people?) were correct or not, but I wanted to point out how dificult and complicated the task and process would be if even average scientific, ethical, legal and moral (humane) standards are to be met.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by loco

OK also for here the big "??????" already asked the same "??????" on the Dutchforum ;
Is it possible this one F1 wolfdog that is in Germany can ever come in the CSW breed and have offspring with a pedigree that says it is a CSW ???
If yes, is this legal ???
If yes, is this also possible in other European country's ???
If yes, is this also possible for other breeds ???


Groette Martine.

Yes to all ??? because of phenotype registration in FCI, which is sometimes good but mostly bad.
If you register the F1 as a CSW his offspring will get normal pedigrees after 4 generations.
And if you look up the discussion about Sangria Passo de Lupo you will find out this is not so far away.

Ina

[loco]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes to all ??? because of phenotype registration in FCI, which is sometimes good but mostly bad.
If you register the F1 as a CSW his offspring will get normal pedigrees after 4 generations.
And if you look up the discussion about Sangria Passo de Lupo you will find out this is not so far away.

Ina

But this is possible for just every simple person to do ??
You do not have to come with a lot off good reason to do so ??
And ask to the FCI to justify this as correct ??
And there is also not a commisi to aprove this as correct ??
And Sangria is in the future, a Granddad of a lot off CSW ??

I have heard off using dogs instead of the one who is written on the pedigree .
But never knew this was possible .
It is really absurd , but thanks for your answer .

Groette Martine.

[Nebulosa]

Maybe I can reply about it then our club is even more open and dirty than the italianone

Originally Posted by loco

But this is possible for just every simple person to do ??

Yes, just a simple person can make a "pure breed certified" you only need a look like CzW dog and show it to 3 all rounder judge who sometime snever seen the breed before, if they said "ok" so the dog receive the pure breed certified, and can mate as make registered puppies with special pedigree, here, in red collor then the official is blue one.

You do not have to come with a lot off good reason to do so ??

No, only show the mongrel CzW-look-a-like for 3 all rounder ignorant judges and you will have your pure breed certified.

And ask to the FCI to justify this as correct ??

Difficult.. FCI is just politic as dogshows, only a good way to have your money with the registration and monopolium

And there is also not a commisi to aprove this as correct ??

Sure!! the 3 all rounder noob judge

And Sangria is in the future, a Granddad of a lot off CSW ??

After 3 generation of registered dogs all Sangria and other mix lines will be so consider as the old pure lines for FCI, some uninformed people probably will use without know about all this, some will use for continue such "super" line

I have heard off using dogs instead of the one who is written on the pedigree .
But never knew this was possible .
It is really absurd , but thanks for your answer .

Groette Martine.

That's why by the way I agree with GSD breeders and his non-FCI club conected only with the German GSD club.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hello

Yes I agree, but we was not talking about CsV blood lines, only if it is right or not to use a pure CsV in mixing whit wolf to create a new breed...

FCI say NO, but Paul lives in UK and aperantly it is OK by DEFRA or UK law to mix wolves X dog or Wolves X wolfdog...

But it has nothing to do whit CsV as a breed as non of this offsprings will ever be CsV, like whit the mutara...

But as I say again, in my opinion NO new mixing whit wolves is necessary to create a new breed, but if I think like you, it is to be done by experts in cross breeding only !!!

Best regards / Mikael

Well this is not what I was talking about !
I am speaking of all breeds, not only CSW.
...I will repeat my self again : if you are a recognized breeder(of any breed), you should not use your pedigree dogs to create mixes/crosses, as a recognized breeder, you should work for the better of the breed which you are a registered breeder for
Example : you are recognized breeder of CSW, then you should only breed your CSW`s with other CSW`s, but if you have another dog(which is not part of your recognized kennel, does`nt matter what breed or mix/cross) then it would, for me, be okey to mix/cross it with what ever you like, as this will not effect your moral obligations to the breed which you as a recognized breeder should work for the better of your breed.
This is regulations of Danish kennel club and I fully agree with this
In other words if you keep your recognized kennel dogs apart from your "hobby" dogs, then it is no problem.

In Denmark it only possible to get pedigree on puppies, where both parrents have FCI recognized pedigree.

Greetings Rolf

[loco]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Maybe I can reply about it then our club is even more open and dirty than the italianone
.

, Maybe they are just all dirty ???
Do you also know where I can read more, about this rule of the FCI ???

Groette Martine.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes to all ??? because of phenotype registration in FCI, which is sometimes good but mostly bad.
If you register the F1 as a CSW his offspring will get normal pedigrees after 4 generations.
And if you look up the discussion about Sangria Passo de Lupo you will find out this is not so far away.

Ina

But is it realy this simple ???

It was hard for Lennart Saarloos and Karel Hartl, way would it be simple now ??? minimum 5 generations from wolf FCI say ! Standard like and supervise breeding by FCI, like the way Rona talk about...

In Sweden you will NOT get your CsV or Saarloos peedigee after a normal mating whitout a DNA test that say that the parents is the parents, I do not se how no one here can register a F1 or a new line of CsW as you say can happen i Germany !!!

But if, way are you just thinking of a F1 from Paul ??? there is more wolf mixt dogs in Germany then one !!! and I do not se how a American Wolfdog x CsV will be CsV standard like

And I do not think FCI or German kennel club is this stupide as you say ???
But I might be wrong ???

Now I se way Christian is angry !!! but way at Paul ??? way not FCI or the German Kennel club ???

Best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by loco

, Maybe they are just all dirty ???
Do you also know where I can read more, about this rule of the FCI ???

Groette Martine.

Sorry but I really would like to know also, but, according Passo Del Lupo FCi gave this opportunity for every breed who isn't fixed yet ( that isn't the case of the CzW)

In all the world, the FCI give the possibility (only for some breed not fixed yet) to inseret some new blood for became better.

So, I search on FCI webpage about it, and I found nothing about "Pure breed certified" for "not fixed breeds" then, so far I know actually not fixed breeds yet nor even are recognized by FCI, so, its a nonsense in my sight untill someone proof the contrarie.

If nothing is write there so.. all those dogs are illegal by FCI rules, independant of the rules of the country who do it, but FCI seems to be not more than a expensive office.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

Ok, I understand now.

But I remember somebody mentioning here (though I don't remember who exactly it was) that a further wolfblood should be added to the CSV breed to avoid inbreeding and heredic diseases. I don't know if the person (people?) were correct or not, but I wanted to point out how dificult and complicated the task and process would be if even average scientific, ethical, legal and moral (humane) standards are to be met.

Yes you are right that was me

But I do not expect it to be easy at all, it will be like to start over again...
Hard, expensive and take long time.

But for me it does not have to be a new line whit wolf, it can also be a CsV to GSD, but that is a nother topic i think...

Best regards / Mikael