Italian bonitations

[saschia]

OK, so quick overview:

1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent
2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent.
3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog.

There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion:

1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all.

2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code.

On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior.

Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2.

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I see the overview was not that quick ;o);

[woland77]

Originally Posted by saschia

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I'm agree with you, but we don't need political issue but around the table, Italian, Czech, Slovak, French, German and Polish club, to project a new test, better test for all!!!

ethologically on the reaction of the dog alone there is much to discuss, is not simple like: "dog alone have support by owner" is realy but dog alone have primary instict of self-defence, we can't select the dog about reaction from instinctive primary, and is too dificult know with the dog threaten at the pole, the border of the lack of psychological support by owner, and the emergence of instinct primary!

[wolfin]

khmm, Polish not have a club, Lithuania have

[woland77]

Originally Posted by wolfin

khmm, Polish not have a club, Lithuania have

is this a big problem?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by woland77

is this a big problem?

you say "I'm agree with you, but we don't need political issue but around the table, Italian, Czech, Slovak, French, German and Polish club, to project a new test, better test for all!!!"
I corect You
and please explaine who is with this doberman, but in normal info, yet I and others not understand who is who

[saschia]

Originally Posted by woland77

ethologically on the reaction of the dog alone there is much to discuss, is not simple like: "dog alone have support by owner" is realy but dog alone have primary instict of self-defence, we can't select the dog about reaction from instinctive primary, and is too dificult know with the dog threaten at the pole, the border of the lack of psychological support by owner, and the emergence of instinct primary!

But with bonitation we don't want to see self-defence, we want to see how the dog evaluates the situation on its own. Self-confident dog with stable character may react in different ways to the attack (whether weak or strong) but should not evaluate contact as attack even if it was attacked previously by the same person... Instinct says to the dog when to run and when to fight if it considers the situation dangerous, but the character says how it will evaluate the situation...

I like weak attack better myself because it better shows the evaluation by the dog - it is easy to evaluate the strong attack as danger allways, but with weak attack lots of self-confident dog evaluate the situation as only potentially dangerous and show the good stability of their character, not attacking prematurely.

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character, even bringing it close to the Slovak and Czech bonitation. There you can see already how the dog evaluates the situation. Because shy dog will not allow contact, or will shy away from it, while stable dog will either ignore or be positive about it.

I do not understand your mention of politics. As far as I know, the Slovak and Czech bonitations, althogh different, are acknowledged by our breeding commitees. We do not acknowledge the Italian bonitation, for reasons I stated previously, there is no situation where the dog will be evaluating a situation on its own.

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by saschia

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character,

Uff!
For the last time : CAL, ZTP, IPO ans so on, ARE allowed in Italy. Leaving a dog alone and attack him is allowed too.

[saschia]

sorry Navarre, I ment not recognized by ENCI and maybe giving problem for recognition

[woland77]

Originally Posted by saschia

But with bonitation we don't want to see self-defence, we want to see how the dog evaluates the situation on its own. Self-confident dog with stable character may react in different ways to the attack (whether weak or strong) but should not evaluate contact as attack even if it was attacked previously by the same person... Instinct says to the dog when to run and when to fight if it considers the situation dangerous, but the character says how it will evaluate the situation...

I like weak attack better myself because it better shows the evaluation by the dog - it is easy to evaluate the strong attack as danger allways, but with weak attack lots of self-confident dog evaluate the situation as only potentially dangerous and show the good stability of their character, not attacking prematurely.

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character, even bringing it close to the Slovak and Czech bonitation. There you can see already how the dog evaluates the situation. Because shy dog will not allow contact, or will shy away from it, while stable dog will either ignore or be positive about it.

I do not understand your mention of politics. As far as I know, the Slovak and Czech bonitations, althogh different, are acknowledged by our breeding commitees. We do not acknowledge the Italian bonitation, for reasons I stated previously, there is no situation where the dog will be evaluating a situation on its own.

Hi Saschia, mention of politic are not about your post ( with seriuos consideration) but about more other post!
I understand is no possible for you recognized Italian Bonitation for big differences, my dog's have on the same time Czech/Slovak bonitation and Italian bonitation. But i think is better to think a new test for all.
Yes, test with dog at pole without owner, and without threat is recognized, on ZTP test (recognized bt ENCI for Dobermann and Rottweiler) there are a pole test, on my reply (n°53) on this thread i explane this. On this test we can know self-defense border line, and is very important on all breed than have sensible character.
With threat the dog at the pole, i think is so dificult to distinguish how the reaction come from primary istinct (self denfence/drain), or real character of dog...primary istinct are on all dog, on all animal world and are not important for character selection because selection can doing minimun change on this...is a very complex debate, but i think is necessary to talk about this to evolve character test for CZW.

[wolfin]

ok this is doberman ZTP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VwsHcCwe1c

very similar to normal bonitation, only dog mas normal bite and make atack with bite. who dogs cann this make yet? and for who this is when in FR or others lands dogs NOT cann training defence

ZTP reguls for Doberman

" List of things needed for starter ZTP

- copy of the pedigree

- letter sent to the DV that you want to participate at the ZTP

- HD-result from Germany or from DV recognized country. if you dont have a HD-result at the time when the ZTP takes
place then you can parttake, but the ZTP will be taken away from you if your dog doesnt get at least HD-2

- dog needs to have at least BH

- the parents need to have a HD-result, no matter if German or not, copies of the results have to be sent to the DV"
http://dobermannreview.net/infolib/i...do_pdf=1&id=14

[woland77]

"Norme di svolgimento dello ZTP (Rules of ZTP recognized by Enci)


Dopo aver consegnato il certificato originale del LOI ed una sua copia al responsabile della prova, il conduttore si presenta con il cane dal giudice; il responsabile controlla i documenti del cane, il tatuaggio ed il risultato della displasia impresso sul pedigree; il giudice si informa con il conduttore sulla crescita, eventuali cambi di proprietà e particolari influssi esterni sul cane presentato. Dopo l'esame morfologico per la qualifica il cane è portato con il guinzaglio, possibilmente lento, in diverse direzioni sul campo di prova. Durante questo cammino deve incontrare alcune persone distribuite sul campo, ferme o in movimento. Di seguito queste persone formano un gruppo. Il formarsi del gruppo non segue uno schema rigido ed il giudice, a sua discrezione, ne dirigerà i movimenti. E' importante che all'interno del gruppo si creino situazioni naturali, come nella vita di tutti i giorni (saluto dandosi la mano, far cadere un oggetto rumoroso, aprire un ombrello ecc.). Tutto ciò senza manifestare alcun tipo di minaccia. In tale fase si devono verificare la sicurezza di sé, la soglia di reazione, il temperamento, la duttilità e la sicurezza sotto stimolo. Quando il gruppo si allontana il conduttore prosegue il percorso; mentre si trova ad una distanza di circa 30m vengono esplosi due colpi a salve (calibro 6mm). I soggetti che al momento dello sparo dimostrano paura non sono idonei. Di seguito il conduttore , su indicazione del giudice , assicura il cane ad un paletto posto in mezzo al campo poi si allontana fino a nascondersi alla sua vista. Il cane rimane solo al paletto e dopo cinque minuti il giudice gli si avvicina, girandogli intorno senza minacciarlo. Gli si ferma davanti, di fianco, lo tocca (se ritiene di poterlo toccare) e fa cadere per terra un quaderno o qualcosa di simile. In seguito, su comando del giudice, il conduttore prende il cane esce dal campo. Durante il test d'isolamento non ha importanza che il cane sia tranquillo e ben disposto, o si dimostri aggressivo; l'importante è che l'aggressività non nasca da paura o da poca sicurezza di sé. Dopo che il soggetto è uscito dal campo il figurante si posiziona dietro un nascondiglio scelto dal giudice in maniera non abituale per i cani che lavorano nel campo. Su indicazione del giudice il figurante esce dal nascondiglio ed attacca frontalmente il conduttore. Il cane deve dimostrare istinto alla difesa reagendo prontamente, afferrando la manica con presa ferma e combattendo con decisione. In questa fase il cane è minacciato ma non è colpito con il bastone. Il figurante termina questa fase dell'attacco su indicazione del giudice. Quindi il figurante simula una fuga di circa 50 passi, il conduttore tiene il cane per il collare e lo invia all'attacco lanciato su ordine del giudice. Il figurante, su ordine del giudice, si gira quando il soggetto è a circa 10m (anche durante questa fase il bastone viene usato solo per minacciare). Al conduttore è permesso di eccitare il cane con la voce. Su indicazione del giudice il figurante si arresta ed a quel punto il conduttore può rimettere il cane al guinzaglio e recarsi dal giudice per la comunicazione di termine della prova."


Taken from Dobermann Club Italia, please use translater now i have no time.
Big difference is dog alone at pole for 5 minutes before the test (in Slovak e Czech approaches is immediatly ), no theart to the dog alone at pole!

[wolfin]

when You not have time to written, please not written
i send You GERMAN ZTP and ONLY hes is real ZTP, others is not valid in normal doberman world
or italian doberman have "his" ZTP

[woland77]

Originally Posted by wolfin

very similar to normal bonitation, only dog mas normal bite and make atack with bite. who dogs cann this make yet? and for who this is when in FR or others lands dogs NOT cann training defence

Similar?...group section is similar??? In Slovak bonitation in Heigenbrucken no group test, other bonitation that i've seen group section for 1 minutes...never group closed the dog like on video..

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Similar?...group section is similar??? In Slovak bonitation in Heigenbrucken no group test, other bonitation that i've seen group section for 1 minutes...never group closed the dog like on video..

I see You not know who is real character test and training test
ok italian know all better poore lithuania going out

[woland77]

Originally Posted by wolfin

ZTP reguls for Doberman

" List of things needed for starter ZTP

- copy of the pedigree

- letter sent to the DV that you want to participate at the ZTP

- HD-result from Germany or from DV recognized country. if you dont have a HD-result at the time when the ZTP takes
place then you can parttake, but the ZTP will be taken away from you if your dog doesnt get at least HD-2

- dog needs to have at least BH

- the parents need to have a HD-result, no matter if German or not, copies of the results have to be sent to the DV"

I've told about pole test on ZTP, i know the other rules but are not intersting!