Champions, world champions, super champions

[Silvester]

This is what I have REALLY posted:

But i can understand you , "Nebulosa" :

Yes, it´s very difficult to find something negative in the pedigree of the first litter of the actuell World Champion and were all 4 grandparents have an "P1" in bonitation -code for "excellent"....beside other advantages like hip-results ( i already told ) , colour of eyes, quality of hair and coat , small ears and correct short tail, and, and , and....

You left away the main part !

(This main part was written by ME , not by YOU, you are right !
It was a writing/ printing mistake only.Sorry to this.)

But this you have been writing:

Originally posted by "Nebulosa":
But let me show you something that can be a shock for someone who only accept the existance of A dogs, the full brother of Bluebell, Baschan, is D, as some of her brothers have C results.

So, I think its time to wake up and at least try to understand what is selection, and that in dog breed does not exist perfect dog, sorry to say, but if you even tough that the line of your dog was the "most healty and clean of the breed" you were mistaken, its a line which need a lot of selection, as 99% of whole breed, and its a very important info if you even think about breed with your "perfect dog", open the eyes and see the truth can hurt, but its needed for the breed selection.

Do you think i don´t know already all this ??And about the other three ancestors of Carlos´litter you were talking about before?

Of course i know!

And i say it again: About "Perfect dog" I have never spoken - only you .

I´m betting at last 100 against 1 to you - that my "Zeus" will have an "A" for hip-result in future - you can take me by my public word here, you "Great Guru!"

And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics - may be you should read what i have posted here in the German wolfdog about 5 years before?

But yes , i´m sorry - you can not read German language.

Have a nice evening all !

[Silvester]

And as answer to "Rona" in her posting No 15.:

Originally Posted by Rona

Are you aware that your friend Carlos, selected Harmonia, the 'ugly' female WW 2006 with too long ears, too long tail, uncourages and irritable to be the mother of the male he bought from Daiva?

Yes, of course i am aware ! May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...

The opposite is correct : He made the best choice he could get - for the reasons i already have told before.

Good night to everyone.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Silvester

Yes, of course i am aware ! May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take his own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...

The opposite is correct : He made the best choice he could get - for the reasons i already have told before.

Good night to everyone.

Yes, I him say better used other male for new blood in Spain.
And used Itu for others female or daughter Emba when he have this same REOLUP like Emba.

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Yes, I him say better used other male for new blood in Spain.
And used Itu for others female or daughter Emba when he have this same REOLUP like Emba.

Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.

yes he can used and Itu, but when have male in home better used others, and make new blood in Spain. Or not? For you this not good idea? for my yes. Itu is young and he have his time for all. like and Amore, or not?

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Wolfin, resent you that Carlos didt use your Itu? He is still a free man. Its decisions are free. You speak frankly, please.

Sorry Daniela, but I think you are very unfair towards Daiva. I know she was helping Carlos to choose the male for Emba and instead of promoting her own dogs, her and from her kennel she was suggesting him to import new blood to his country. Itu lives already in Spain, he has good owner and it is sure the dog will not "dissapear" - he can be used anytime. So I think it is to her credit that she was not thinking about her interests but helped Carlos to make also something good for the Spanish CzW population.

If she would be "resent" she could really easy influence Calros opinion by telling him invented stories about problems or hidden genetic faults coming in the line of Amore. She could exactly do the same as many breeder on this forum do every day...

No - she is not recent. But I would say you can be (at last a little bit) grateful to her that Carlos choosed Amore... As you wrote before - when he was choosed he was an unknown dog... So think twice - WHY Carlos from Spain decided to go so many kilometers to use an UNKNOWN dog. Not because he is a fortune-teller who know Amore will become famous but because SOMEONE told him "there is a nice dog living in CZ"...

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Sorry Daniela, but I think you are very unfair towards Daiva. I know she was helping Carlos to choose the male for Emba and instead of promoting her own dogs, her and from her kennel she was suggesting him to import new blood to his country. Itu lives already in Spain, he has good owner and it is sure the dog will not "dissapear" - he can be used anytime. So I think it is to her credit that she was not thinking about her interests but helped Carlos to make also something good for the Spanish CzW population.

If she would be "resent" she could really easy influence Calros opinion by telling him invented stories about problems or hidden genetic faults coming in the line of Amore. She could exactly do the same as many breeder on this forum do every day...

No - she is not recent. But I would say you can be (at last a little bit) grateful to her that Carlos choosed Amore... As you wrote before - when he was choosed he was an unknown dog... So think twice - WHY Carlos from Spain decided to go so many kilometers to use an UNKNOWN dog. Not because he is a fortune-teller who know Amore will become famous but because SOMEONE told him "there is a nice dog living in CZ"...

Díky Margo.
Budu psát česky, protože ty rozumíš a ostatní toto číst nemusí a pro mě je dost obtížné psát anglicky.
Carlos se mi svěřovat, že krytí konzultuje s tebou. Já jsem se dlouho bránila spojení Emba x Mio, protože na můj vkus jsou psi velmi příbuzní. Carlos mě po několikaměsíčním emailování nakonec přemluvil. Mám tady věc chápat tak, že Daiva byla prostředníkem? Ona Mia doporučila? Z jejich příspěvků mi připadá že s tímto spojením spíš nesouhlasila ...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Díky Margo.
Budu psát česky, protože ty rozumíš a ostatní toto číst nemusí a pro mě je dost obtížné psát anglicky.
Carlos se mi svěřovat, že krytí konzultuje s tebou. Já jsem se dlouho bránila spojení Emba x Mio, protože na můj vkus jsou psi velmi příbuzní. Carlos mě po několikaměsíčním emailování nakonec přemluvil. Mám tady věc chápat tak, že Daiva byla prostředníkem? Ona Mia doporučila? Z jejich příspěvků mi připadá že s tímto spojením spíš nesouhlasila ...

v tym ja nie bolam prostrednikem a som od teho rada. Amore mio je krasny psik, no carlos mohl mit aj lepsy a zaujimavsy vrh. Daniela dost teho, mas svoj vrh a sveho psa. a nie delaj z sebia mudcenici.

Daniela in this case when carlos used Amore i not have interes, I help him with others male, not this. And I am glad for this. He make this who make. Have nice puppy but not very interesing pedigree, this is not good. But breeders is deferent, one wish have interesing dogs, others make this same pedigree variants. Daniela You have nice dog, nice litter but stop, not make for self martyrs.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Carlos se mi svěřovat, že krytí konzultuje s tebou. Já jsem se dlouho bránila spojení Emba x Mio, protože na můj vkus jsou psi velmi příbuzní.

Yes, it is inbreed. But I think not big enough to say Calros not to make this mating (especially that all other things were "in plus" for Amore )... The inbreed is not big and is made on Grey Wolf - nice and healthy dog. And I think in Spain inbreeded dogs with such pedigree can have high value for breeding. Expecially that basing on the photos the puppies will be really great, typical dogs in the future.

The Spanish (and Portuguese) problem is that for many years both countries were "garbage can" for other breeders. The main "champion" lines there are made of the unsold puppies who nobody wanted to buy in Czech Republic and Slovakia (because of poor exterier or problematic lines (HD and other problems)). Whole litters of such "low value" puppies were send there and are the breeding base there. Now sice some years it is changing (thanks to the new owners/breeders there) but still you can see many dogs with really untypical heads and bodies - where the faults are very good "based" in the genetics.
Only excellent dogs with strong "pedigrees" - not only because of the inbreed but also because of the exterier of the parents, grand parents, grend-grend-parents - can defeat the bad genes. And (small) inbreed can be useful in such case...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Silvester

May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

I´m sure you will replie: Because he´s a newcomer and does not know about anything...

Why don't you take my advice and think before you write???
On 03-01-2010, 15:31 I wrote to Carlos (post 36 in the original topic):

Carlos, your dogs are great, the pups are lovely and I'm sure with your approach (eg willingness to travel to matchings) and a bit more experience you'll become an excellent breeder!

So you were wrong again Travelling to matchings, especially with the first litter(s) only shows devotion on the part of the breeder and his care about the breed development.

Daiva is not my favourite breeder, but I'm not blind and see that Harmonia is a great dog. It seems a person who disagrees with you may only have ugly dogs!
Don't you see such approach is childish and immature and through your ignorance and blind fury you are only discrediting Carlos' kennel and destroying his dog's reputation as a future rep?

[Silvester]

Originally Posted by Silvester
The mating of this both parents of this litter are at the moment on of the best or just the best combination you can find in the whole breed, not only by hip- results but also by very low incest - quotient ...not to talk from other advantages more.

Yes, THIS (!) i have posted here, well done, very correct !! ( And it´s simply the truth.)

BUT I DID NEVER TELL SOMETHING ABOUIT "PERFECTNESS" OR WAS USING THE WORD "PERFECT !!!"

DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND ? "THE BEST" has completely NOT the same meaning as "PERFECT" ! AND i said also "at the moment" !

Read again above, as long as you are able to understand .

Dear "Nebulosa" ,may be you should train your English understanding and knowledge also a little ?

[Silvester]

Originally Posted by Silvester
May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

Dear "Rona" the same is for you :

Read correctly BEFORE you are telling such rubbish here !

I was only asking WHY YOU THINK CARLOS DID NOT TAKE HIS OWN DOG ITUBORIS for breeding !

That making of long travelling for mating shows the engagement of the breeder is of course right and you have posted correctly - the same i said also.I also have seen what you wrote in your posting No.36

BUT THIS WAS NOT THE QUESTION !!

Rona, please read and understand my questions right until you write such furtheron nonsense here.

originally posted by Rona:
It seems a person who disagrees with you may only have ugly dogs!

Where i have told something like this ? These are only YOUR words !

I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio.

I have NOT said Harmonia is "ugly" - only YOUR word !!

Now you can see ??

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Silvester

I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio.
Now you can see ??

Ok, I am ofcourse can be accused of being not objective, because my little girl is a daughter of Harmonia, but let me say. Yes, maybe she is not the most correct dog of all, but she has two amazing things that make people open their mouths - it is the charisma, the pride, the thing that is called "knowing her value". And the other thing is the way she moves and it is really amazing, believe me

[Rona]

I have only told that Harmonia can not be compared with Amore Mio

I agree she can't. Haronia is a female and Amore Mio is a male.

But seriously: I didn't write that Harmonia is better than Amore Mio! I cannot compare these two dogs because I don't know Amore Mio.
Are you implying that you know both of them WELL and you're a breed judge? There is more to assessment of the dog than WD photos and database....

May be you and Daiva better should ask yourselfes why Carlos did NOT take this own male for breeding but made long expensive trip to Czechia for getting Amore Mio as father ??

OMG, another forum member who cannot read between the lines
The answer is easy:
I suppose Carlos travelled for matching because he's an ambitious breeder and found a rep that genetically suited his female better than his own dog, and not, as you implied, because his own dog, a son of Harmonia was not good enough for matching. He may suit better a different Spanish famale or maybe Carlos intends to use him later, just as many breeders do.

[Nebulosa]

Oh, so it was you who posted it really, in this case I corrected the quote name, because I would not believe in such nonsense.

Today is pretty easy you receive P1 with some judges, even if your dog have really short legs, open lips, long ears and so on, he will receive P1 as we can see in some results even by this database, I really dont care for bonitation results, but I need to agree that if it were done properlly, would be very interessing way of evaluation, really usefull.

You said your dog is correct, I already see genetic for shorth legs in the linebreeding that was done, but for some people the most important is short ears, clear eyes and nice head, maye its exmplaine why we can meet such horrible bodies and terrible movement in dogshows, I hope your dog will be correct, and not more one shorth legged wolfdog, as the majority of the exemplars which not reach 55.

Originally Posted by Silvester

And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics - may be you should read what i have posted here in the German wolfdog about 5 years before?

As I hope you also know that if the dog have perfect hips, independant of his treatment or feed he will have A or B hips, not more than it.
You have some B and C brothers, dont try to convince me that this D was "acquired".

Originally Posted by Silvester

But yes , i´m sorry - you can not read German language.

When its really needed google helps a lot, but it isn't as I have all information in my own lenguage, principally about hips and elbows displasy, but when I search for more uncommon genetic ill and I dont find properly information in portuguese, I can search in French, Spanish, Italian and English with perfection and its already solve the problem, I can add also a little bit of Polish thanks to Polish people and their patience with me , but I hope one day I will learn German also as I find his sound and write very nice.
But thanks for worrie about my lack of knowledge in German language.

I really hope your dog will be healty, but even healty if you will use in the breeding, you will need to take care when select a male.

Originally Posted by Silvester

And i say it again: About "Perfect dog" I have never spoken - only you .

So I should remind you what who wrote here.

Originally Posted by Silvester

The mating of this both parents of this litter are at the moment on of the best or just the best combination you can find in the whole breed, not only by hip- results but also by very low incest - quotient ...not to talk from other advantages more.

The best litter but not only by hips... when you wrote it I was sure you didn't knew about the brother of Bluebell.
P1... P1.. short ears, clear eyes and all of blabering I already quote.

As I was sure you didn't knew what does men " select a dog breed" but...

Originally Posted by Silvester

and P 3 NOT a P1 in bonitation- code , with two grandparents with HD- result "C" (!) can without any doubt not be compared with Amore Mio!

You see, I'm sure German people are very responsible with HD results and also with HD information, you really should get better informed.
I confirmed what I tough before.

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by Silvester

I´m betting at last 100 against 1 to you - that my "Zeus" will have an "A" for hip-result in future

hi,

i wish for you and for "ZEUS", but if you know the risks of the genetics so much you donot can be on that….

[martiou07]

As regards knowing the actual value a reproducer, it is necessary to wait before being able to express, on photograph it is true that I find Amore splendid, but nothing allows yet; to express on its real value standard, Harmonia has defects, like which dog (the perfect dog do not exist, besides mine of course ) nevertheless we can see his value and to see that this bitch put at the world pups very interesting… The titles are a thing very gratifiante for breeder and the owner but of nothing an index for the value reproducer…. ( is just more salesman )

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Silvester

And of course i also know that HD is not ONLY caused by genetics

HD, always, in any case, start from genetic heriatage of the dog (100%)
Development and severity of disease are governed by the same genetic haritage (10-30%), and by environmental influence (70-90%).

Lupus Ibericus litter is excelent for HD...
Similar litters with exclent result:
Arimminum "O", COR 26,56 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
Arimmiunm "N" COR 21,72 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
dei Navarri "A" COR 17,39 have 5 dog's HD A total 6 dog's
(i know the 5 dog's without result, are not dog's with bad result not published, are simply dog's without x-rays)

..this can not give 100% security, but on selection this litter can boast one of the most best range estimate on CZW..

..the brother Baschan can say all, or nothing, remember Bety and Colt Zeper..is most important to study the offspring, relationship, genetic similarity.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by woland77

HD, always, in any case, start from genetic heriatage of the dog (100%)
Development and severity of disease are governed by the same genetic haritage (10-30%), and by environmental influence (70-90%).

Lupus Ibericus litter is excelent for HD...
Similar litters with exclent result:
Arimminum "O", COR 26,56 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
Arimmiunm "N" COR 21,72 have 4 dog's HD A, total 6 dog's
dei Navarri "A" COR 17,39 have 5 dog's HD A total 6 dog's
(i know the 5 dog's without result, are not dog's with bad result not published, are simply dog's without x-rays)

..this can not give 100% security, but on selection this litter can boast one of the most best range estimate on CZW..

Hartl was telling about it already a long time before.... And it is very good visible when you follow the lines in the database - in some lines there are only about 50% with dogs wich get HD-A results but there are also lines with 80% or even more dogs with HD-A. It is HUGE difference. But short:

HD-free parents and "HD-free lines" do not GARANTY that there will be no puppies with HD. BUT there ARE lines which "bring HD" and lines which are (almost) "HD-free" (with a very small % of HD-dogs).