handling of health problems

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I take your point Ina, but on the other hand one cannot shut the gossipers’ mouths and they’ll continue spreading their rumours /lies privately or on some other platforms, where there is no possibility to confront them and present true views and facts. Not to mention, that if banned or heavily moderated, they will keep victimizing themselves, and using this fact as an argument for their cases.

Last summer I met a man who asked me which kennel Lorelei came from. Since he looked a bit weird, (the type I call little macho willing to walk with a big wolf ) I gave him a name of a nonexiting kennel . We started talking about CSVs and he told me he had already conducted research for buying a CSV and one of the breeders from central Poland, the top expert in CSVs (sic!) briefed him about the CSV market in Poland. You wouldn’t believe what nonsense I heard about Margo’s kennel, about Galicyjski Wilk and a couple of others!!! By eliminating the “bad” kennels and adding 2 + 2 I could guess with great probability who the source of his “info” was, but since he didn’t mention the name directly, I won’t spread gossip.
Even if half of what he said was true, I should have already been sued by Margo for not taking Lorka often enough to dog shows , my dog should be half her size, have very poor HD and ED and would never be able to play unleashed with other dogs or peacefully walk in busy streets, all of which she often does. .

I am sure this man was not the only indoctrinated one! Such cases have happened, happen and will happen in every country, and I think it’s better to be able to address the gossipers: ask for evidence, details, names, etc. If they cannot display them, and in return only call their opponents names or do not answer the questions, they only discredit themselves. If they do answer, the situation isn't much better. Recent example? Even open, unprejudiced person, who tries to see arguments of all sides, finds it hard to understand how a breed expert may so easily blame breeder(s?) for not testing their dogs for dwarfism, if she herself hasn’t tested hers yet (only intends to ...) .

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders. Would it be possible to open such a kind of forum here?

@Nebulosa: I will try to reach a friend of mine of the DOK and ask if they are willing to help you with datas. You also could contact the VDH who gets a double of the evaluation form. I never heard of PRA in this amount in Germany, it would maybe also help to find out if it is spread in all lines like the dwarf genes or if it is only in few lines. As far as I do know we don´t have those lines of the test in Germany, at least not that spreaded, actually I don´t know one. But as we have to do eye tests with every breeding dog every year and the DOK, the VDH and the breeders get a copy of every test it should be possible to get the datas of every breeding dog in Germany. My problem is we don´t have an official club here so I don´t know if I can get the datas directly.

Another question: According to what I was able to read on the Polish forum there have been paternitiy tests done on Saarloos in the Netherlands, that showed that Chrop was bred into some of them, have they been done also on CSW the other way round?

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders.

Sorry for being devil's advocate, but haven't some of the breeders turned to be the heaviest gossipers and bullies? Aren't you guys afraid they'll use the info from the expert forum to sperad even more rumours and gossips among the 'newbies'?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I know but somehow we have to find a better way to communicate and maybe it would be a possible way to exclude liars if the lies are proofed to be lies. At least in a breeders forum people mainly know each other and better know each others dogs.
Don´t get me wrong I am only trying to do some kind of brainstorming to find a better way to communicate and I find it always better to know as much opinions as possible. It is easier (and cheaper) here than by phone or private mails and I don´t have much time this year to visit shows or camps. I wanted to talk to Mijke in Bratislava but had to leave without being able to speak to anybody.

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I know but somehow we have to find a better way to communicate and maybe it would be a possible way to exclude liars if the lies are proofed to be lies.

I'm afraid the procedures to proof it would be quite a challenge. Besides, who is to grant the "certificates of honesty"? Admin? Poor admin... .

I'd suggest a skype discussion group to which you'd invite only people you know and trust. This would be free of charge if you all have broadband and much safer. What's more, nobody could blame you for not including them in your "private conversations"

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'd suggest a skype discussion group to which you'd invite only people you know and trust. This would be free of charge if you all have broadband and much safer. What's more, nobody could blame you for not including them in your "private conversations"

The disadvantage of Skype is that you need to be present to attend the discussion. On the other hand, with web forum you only need to come, have a look and say your opinion even weeks after the start.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by saschia

The disadvantage of Skype is that you need to be present to attend the discussion. On the other hand, with web forum you only need to come, have a look and say your opinion even weeks after the start.

You don't need to be present if you use the communicator, i.e. chat . You just click the button "conversations from yesterday" or "from the last 7 or 30 days or from the beginning" and read what everybody has written. You can send photos, documents, films, etc. and have several groups for various topics discussed, with different sets of participants

It's not my business and I don't care how the breeders will communicate among themselves. I just wanted to point another solution, maybe less controversial...Just imagime all the ill-feelings, accusations and commentaries if some breeders were invited to the "elite expert wolfdog.org forum" and some were not.

Whatever method of communication you choose, I wish you good luck with your efforts! I'm sure such 'brainstorming CSV health team' discussions will bring good developments for the breed and this is the thing that really matters.

[loco]

Originally Posted by Rona

Sorry for being devil's advocate, but haven't some of the breeders turned to be the heaviest gossipers and bullies? Aren't you guys afraid they'll use the info from the expert forum to sperad even more rumours and gossips among the 'newbies'?

Touché .