Ugly feminine males...

massimo · 27-01-2010, 14:03

i do NOT understand what Sangria Passo del lupo has to do with this thread.
People love passing from serious constructive talk to pure bla bla.
Milions of posts have been written on "mutara" case and i honestly DONT think that one cannot speak because somebody else points out this argument.
I find it childish.

martiou07 · 27-01-2010, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

i do NOT understand what Sangria Passo del lupo has to do with this thread.
People love passing from serious constructive talk to pure bla bla.
Milions of posts have been written on "mutara" case and i honestly DONT think that one cannot speak because somebody else points out this argument.
I find it childish.

Massimo, the report/ratio is right that I want to render comprehensible you that I do not see how these remarks on a dog such as Bux was, can be objective when that is seen .....

is for that I started well with "great show dog or not " , this remark of your share which appeared completely moved for like attending you since good a long time them dog show

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Monika's links on dog shows are interesting to determine that he was NOT a great show dog, this is a fact.

is this well of you??

Sorry, but Sangria is, I find very an good example to render comprehensible you ....

Afflicted but of the remarks basing itself on result dog show, I do not pay any attention to that ....

you understand ??

Nebulosa · 27-01-2010, 15:43

Yes, Sangria have much to do here and not only, you can add the huge ammount of atipical dogs which win dogshows as "excelent" without any problems.
It will enter in this topic because still have people who dreams that dogshows select something or that dogshows results mean something about the dog.

We entered here also about "select only head", and that who are guilty for that is breder, right? I dont think so, I already had seen some dogshows in Europe with random judges as with "experts' and one thing I didn't saw was people ABLE to judge other thing than only the dog "static", isn't a shame that mostly judges have no idea about how the dog should move? Sorry its one of the most important things as you get some problems in the dogs body.
As nobody judge it, as judges only pay attention to the only thing some of them know to judge, small ears and clear eyes, so, is that some breeders select.

Should I remind also about the huge politicage wich dogshows are full?

z Peronówki · 27-01-2010, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by martiou07

Sorry, but Sangria is, I find very an good example to render comprehensible you ....

Afflicted but of the remarks basing itself on result dog show, I do not pay any attention to that ....

I agree - Sangria and the 'disaster-Mutara-Project' is the best example that there are breeders which do not even have the basic idea about the breed and its standard....

Nebulosa - you right, there are more untypical Wolfdogs which are similar to Mutaras. And there are dogs which move horrible.

But all these things are caused by the same: IGNORANCE. UTTER lack of knowledge... by so called "experienced-breeders" and "expert-judges".

Denial · 27-01-2010, 16:29

well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog

By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.

Freeking is a beautifull dog, but what is the matter beetween 13 years and 60 KG? If the dog gets older an makes less movement just give him less food, maybe he could live some more moths keeping his shape right.
I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.

z Peronówki · 27-01-2010, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denial

well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog

New show lines?

Now I wait for Mutara-II-Projecct (CzW x beagle) and Extra-Show-Mutara-III-Project (CzW x Afghan hound)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denial

By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.

You right. In the fact there are many reserches which say that exactly the aspirations of breeders to breed heavier and bigger dogs are the main factores for dysplasia and other similar problems.
And it is visible also by CzW: in heavy lines there are MUCH MORE serious problem with ED, HD and untypical movement than by the right build (not light, just NORMAL).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denial

I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.

NO, Wolfdog is calecting such infromations... So maybe one day elf will prepare us some stats. Anyway when I was colecting the data is was really easy to see: heavy dogs (in the direction to be lymphatic) not only live shorter. But also "worser" - earlier they look "old" very fast...

I saw some REALLY heavy Wolfdogs and it was SAD look. Such animals are simply handicapped when we compare them to "normal" CzWs...

elf · 27-01-2010, 19:14

Here are the graphs I had for HD vs size, 1107 dogs with HD+bonitation (raw data at the bottom: i.e. check not many entries for some size...).

HD A+B

HD C+D+E

HD A

HD B

HD C

HD D

HD E

73cm = {'A': 3, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 1, 'D': 0, 'F': 0}
72cm = {'A': 13, 'C': 6, 'B': 3, 'E': 0, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
70cm = {'A': 32, 'C': 9, 'B': 9, 'E': 4, 'D': 5, 'F': 0}
71cm = {'A': 21, 'C': 3, 'B': 5, 'E': 3, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
69cm = {'A': 42, 'C': 11, 'B': 10, 'E': 4, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
68cm = {'A': 40, 'C': 13, 'B': 15, 'E': 1, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
67cm = {'A': 59, 'C': 14, 'B': 11, 'E': 2, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
66cm = {'A': 52, 'C': 14, 'B': 14, 'E': 0, 'D': 9, 'F': 0}
65cm = {'A': 56, 'C': 9, 'B': 16, 'E': 3, 'D': 8, 'F': 0}
64cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 13, 'B': 19, 'E': 1, 'D': 4, 'F': 0}
63cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 8, 'B': 16, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0}
62cm = {'A': 65, 'C': 21, 'B': 20, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0}
61cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 13, 'B': 11, 'E': 5, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
60cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 4, 'B': 6, 'E': 1, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
59cm = {'A': 4, 'C': 1, 'B': 2, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
58cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
57cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
55cm = {'A': 0, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 0, 'F': 0}

Mikael · 27-01-2010, 19:38

hmmmmmmmmm... Did you come to any conclusion about the size and the effect of HD from this info...

Sorry ta ask, but I´m stupid

Best regards / Mikael

z Peronówki · 27-01-2010, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Here are the graphs I had for HD vs size, 1107 dogs with HD+bonitation (raw data at the bottom: i.e. check not many entries for some size...).

The problem is "high" dog doen't mean "heavy". And there is nothing in the database what can show us "heavy" "normal" and "light" CzW there...

Monika · 27-01-2010, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denial

well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog

By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.

Freeking is a beautifull dog, but what is the matter beetween 13 years and 60 KG? If the dog gets older an makes less movement just give him less food, maybe he could live some more moths keeping his shape right.
I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.

Freeking died six months after the tragic death as his owner.
Nobody know how long he was here if were Franta alive and Freeking was 10 kg less ...

Freeking was only a exsample largest CSW, nothing more.

27-01-2010, 14:03	#1
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	i do NOT understand what Sangria Passo del lupo has to do with this thread. People love passing from serious constructive talk to pure bla bla. Milions of posts have been written on "mutara" case and i honestly DONT think that one cannot speak because somebody else points out this argument. I find it childish. __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

27-01-2010, 15:43	#3
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Yes, Sangria have much to do here and not only, you can add the huge ammount of atipical dogs which win dogshows as "excelent" without any problems. It will enter in this topic because still have people who dreams that dogshows select something or that dogshows results mean something about the dog. We entered here also about "select only head", and that who are guilty for that is breder, right? I dont think so, I already had seen some dogshows in Europe with random judges as with "experts' and one thing I didn't saw was people ABLE to judge other thing than only the dog "static", isn't a shame that mostly judges have no idea about how the dog should move? Sorry its one of the most important things as you get some problems in the dogs body. As nobody judge it, as judges only pay attention to the only thing some of them know to judge, small ears and clear eyes, so, is that some breeders select. Should I remind also about the huge politicage wich dogshows are full? __________________

27-01-2010, 19:14	#7
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Here are the graphs I had for HD vs size, 1107 dogs with HD+bonitation (raw data at the bottom: i.e. check not many entries for some size...). HD A+B HD C+D+E HD A HD B HD C HD D HD E 73cm = {'A': 3, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 1, 'D': 0, 'F': 0} 72cm = {'A': 13, 'C': 6, 'B': 3, 'E': 0, 'D': 2, 'F': 0} 70cm = {'A': 32, 'C': 9, 'B': 9, 'E': 4, 'D': 5, 'F': 0} 71cm = {'A': 21, 'C': 3, 'B': 5, 'E': 3, 'D': 1, 'F': 0} 69cm = {'A': 42, 'C': 11, 'B': 10, 'E': 4, 'D': 2, 'F': 0} 68cm = {'A': 40, 'C': 13, 'B': 15, 'E': 1, 'D': 3, 'F': 0} 67cm = {'A': 59, 'C': 14, 'B': 11, 'E': 2, 'D': 3, 'F': 0} 66cm = {'A': 52, 'C': 14, 'B': 14, 'E': 0, 'D': 9, 'F': 0} 65cm = {'A': 56, 'C': 9, 'B': 16, 'E': 3, 'D': 8, 'F': 0} 64cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 13, 'B': 19, 'E': 1, 'D': 4, 'F': 0} 63cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 8, 'B': 16, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0} 62cm = {'A': 65, 'C': 21, 'B': 20, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0} 61cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 13, 'B': 11, 'E': 5, 'D': 3, 'F': 0} 60cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 4, 'B': 6, 'E': 1, 'D': 2, 'F': 0} 59cm = {'A': 4, 'C': 1, 'B': 2, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0} 58cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0} 57cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0} 55cm = {'A': 0, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 0, 'F': 0} __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

27-01-2010, 19:38	#8
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	hmmmmmmmmm... Did you come to any conclusion about the size and the effect of HD from this info... Sorry ta ask, but I´m stupid Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

27-01-2010, 16:29	#5
Denial Lupo Lucio Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bologna Posts: 474	well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy. Freeking is a beautifull dog, but what is the matter beetween 13 years and 60 KG? If the dog gets older an makes less movement just give him less food, maybe he could live some more moths keeping his shape right. I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.