CSV Mixes in the US

michaelundinaeichhorn · 23-02-2010, 15:33

As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners.

Ina

draggar · 23-02-2010, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners.

Ina

There are health arguments on both sides of the issue but even the most responsible owner can still have accidents or unforseen events. IMO it is better in the log run to take percuations.

Many pets were not spayed or neutered in the Cayman Islands and because of this they had a stray dog population explosion (that's an understatement) after hurricane Ivan went though the island. I'm sure a year (or two) form now we'll see a similar situation in Haiti.

miran · 23-02-2010, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar

There are health arguments on both sides of the issue but even the most responsible owner can still have accidents or unforseen events. IMO it is better in the log run to take percuations.

Many pets were not spayed or neutered in the Cayman Islands and because of this they had a stray dog population explosion (that's an understatement) after hurricane Ivan went though the island. I'm sure a year (or two) form now we'll see a similar situation in Haiti.

So if you don't want to breed it is better and beside that in some cases it is easier

In my case it is easier. I do not want to breed with my CWS or Saarloos and I am absolute against crossbreeding so I neutered them so there can be no accidental crossbreed. By both I let the vet take everything out.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 23-02-2010, 16:33

I am watching at spayed/neutered animals as a vet since more than two decades and did and do those surgeries myself. There are good reasons for this surgery and also very good reasons against which have to be seen at in every individual case because once you have the surgery done there is no way of making it undone.
In the German animal protection law the amputation of bodyparts without medical reason is strictly forbidden, to do it just because a hurricane may come one day is surely no medical reason. That there is no way to controle a freeranging cat is seen as a reason and as we have lots of cats that are allowed to live a normal cat-life involving leaving the house without the owner is seen as enough reason to castrate it, additional to the health problem of persisting heat in female not spayed cats. As we have almost no free running (not within the reach of the owner) dogs and no health problem in dogs that aren´t mating it is a difficult question in our country. I think to ask this questions is right. That some day some bodypart may get ill is no medical reason as long as there is no genetic mutation. Though these surgeries are done I do believe that you have to decide on every case looking at every point involved. I find it highly questionable from an ethical point of view to spay/neuter in general in a country where it is not usual that the dogs run free without their owner and therefor it is very easy to prevent unwished litters. It of course is different in countries where there a big amounts of stray dogs but in most parts of the US it is not even allowed to let your dog run of leash, and also in the UK straying dogs are not the normal way dogs are kept. That there has been a hurricane in the Caymans can´t be a reason to spay dogs in Maine, USA or Berlin, Germany.
That you have male and female dogs together that shouldn´t breed which each other and you can´t seperate them properly may be a reason.

Again, there are good reasons for castration but to do it simply on every individual that is not meant to go into breeding (from a strictly human point of view also) for me is unethical.

Ina

24-02-2010, 00:10

Scientific article on the pros and cons of spaying and castrating dogs and cats I got from another pet forum

:

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering

As for my own opinion, I have seen far too many irresponsible people to have your point of view, Ina. I may be disillusioned, but I feel that with as many "accidents" I've seen, and with as many behavioral problems that neutering could help fix as I've seen, I definitely feel that any dog that isn't working or showing and going to be bred in the future should be fixed. With such a pet overpopulation, and with all the problems with people irresponsibly breeding mixed dogs, I just wouldn't feel comfortable selling a dog without either a co-ownership clause or a spay/neuter clause in the contract. As the breeder, it's your responsibility if the person you sell a puppy to has an "Oops" litter. I guess I just don't have as much faith in humanity as you do!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 24-02-2010, 09:18

As we work as behaviorists as a main job and there has been a lot of communication and research done here in the last years I can tell you that neutering hasn´t got the big behavioural effects as it is meant to have. It only has effects on cases that are only caused by sexual hormons,which are not very many and can be checked in advance by medical castration. before neutering.
And it also can have very negativ behavioural effects!

I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Europe and the USA. We also don´t declaw cats because they could scratch or destroy for example. The use of drugs for behavioral treatment is also of a much lower amount.

If the argument is unwished offspring there is the way of sterilisation which has the same effect but doesn´t change the hormonal status.
I also work for a very big animal shelter and can tell you that we only see very few cases of unwished puppies of German owners. Most litters are of rescued dogs out of countries with stray dogs, where of course like I wrote before neutering is the best way to go (and would be legal in Germany).
I talked of familiy pets in "normal" countries where dogs live with their family and don´t run free, especially not being in heat.
Do you really think it is not possible to find as many responsible people in the USA as in Germany? Do you really think free ranging dogs are such a big problem in cities like New York which is said to have a very high amount of dogs? I think in those cases the real problem is the clean carpet and furniture and the unwillingness of the owner to do some basic dog training. And that is a point of view I find irresponsible.
And even if people in the US are so different it doesn´t mean than that your point of view fits on all other countries.

Ina

miran · 24-02-2010, 11:29

for both there are thinks to say of course. because neutering can have good and bad sites.
I think every situation is different. If I had one breed and all healthy I must be honest to say that I wouldn't let them be neutered.

But in my case if you're dogs run together,different breeds etc I made the choice of neutering two breeds.
And because there are already so-many pets I can understand that a breeder wants that a litter will be neutered too on the right age.

Like you both say it got every thing to do with responsible or irresponsible people and they are in every country.

But I still have a question for Ina. In my case I come to you're vet and ask as a responsible dog owner with my reason why, to let them neutered,what will he/she do then? Let them intact so they have to spend there lives in a kennel or help them so they can be free?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 24-02-2010, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

But I still have a question for Ina. In my case I come to you're vet and ask as a responsible dog owner with my reason why, to let them neutered,what will he/she do then? Let them intact so they have to spend there lives in a kennel or help them so they can be free?

I can tell you what I do, I ask the owner for his reason for neutering, if it is a medical reason I neuter. I also tell him the funnily often not seen fact that a bitch normally gets in heat two times a year (most CSW only once) for around three weeks and that there is only a dangerous period of about 4-5 days. I tell him all positiv effects and all negativ effects if he insists on neutering I neuter, though there have been cases where I have refused to neuter for example a single familiy dog with massiv overweight. Very many owners decide to take the heat after thinking it over because they didn´t know all aspects before.
I don´t neuter before the first heat and don´t like it in males before they are through puberty. There has been one research involving 1000 owners in Germany with the clear result that this is no good thing to do especially from behavioral aspects or only in very, very few cases.
In males we get very few owners asking for it without any reason, if they have a behavioral reason and a case where you can´t be sure the behavior inproves after castration I give them the advise to test a hormonal castration before. It is very unpleasent for all sides if the problem still occures or gets worse after castration.

Coming back to groups without medical problems or behavioral problems: Though it is seen as no good solution to sterilise females there is the point of view to sterilise males. You don´t have any side effects, the social structure doesn´t change. It is also seen as the better solution for male stray dogs because nowadays you know that castration of male strays doesn´t help the population, the can´t keep their social position in the population and new uncastrated strays come in. So it is better to sterilize males to decrease populations.
For dogs in living in homes you should look at the individual dog, if it is really painfull for him to have so many females in heat around him it might be better to castrate.

saschia · 24-02-2010, 11:41

Hi Ina, this got a bit off-topic but very interesting, as I considered spaying my bitch if she would not be used for breeding. This is of course not relevan now, but I would like to know if you consider for example false pregnancies as a good reason to spay a bitch. It seems to me, from the behavioral point of view, to be quite distressing to the bitch to go through it every heat, but maybe I am wrong. I don't mean the severe cases, where the bitch starts producing milk, but just a mild one, where she starts being really ravenous and doesn't enjoy walks and generally behaves as if she was pregnant.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 24-02-2010, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

Hi Ina, this got a bit off-topic but very interesting, as I considered spaying my bitch if she would not be used for breeding. This is of course not relevan now, but I would like to know if you consider for example false pregnancies as a good reason to spay a bitch. It seems to me, from the behavioral point of view, to be quite distressing to the bitch to go through it every heat, but maybe I am wrong. I don't mean the severe cases, where the bitch starts producing milk, but just a mild one, where she starts being really ravenous and doesn't enjoy walks and generally behaves as if she was pregnant.

False pregnancy is a medical reason to spay. Behaviour like the one you describe already is a not mild case but might be discussed as a reason.

The results of the study:
Reasons to castrate a bitch:

acute ghynological problems, Diabetes mellitus etc.
returning, strong false pregnancies with strong suffering of the bitch
extreme aggressiv behaviour during heat and false pregnancy
bitches that smell attractive for males during the whole year and suffer.

not so good reasons:

the wish of changing of aggressiv behaviour that is not only during heat or false pregnancy. In all other cases it is very likely the aggression-problem increases, it is a contraindikation'!
if you want the bitch to get more quiet or active, the result is not to be foreseen. It can be the opposite of the wished behaviour.
prophylactive against mammaltumors: The number of mammaltumors doesn´t justify the health risk of castration. A relevant decrease in cases is only seen in castrations before the first heat, which includes to much risks in itself. (only around 0,2 - 1,8% of all bitches will get a mammatumor in her life and the main part will be benigne)
the owner doesn´t want the troubles of heat (exception the bitch lives together with uncastrated males), this would be illegal in Germany.

The castration is seen to be the only way of unwished pregnancy (exception a "intact" male in the household; in this case it should be thought about castration of the male)

health changes in bitches caused by castration:

different structure of fur: 49 %
increase in weight: 44 %
increased appetite: 40 %
bladder incontinence: 28 % (differences in breeds)
changes in scelettal growth: 4%

in males:
increase of weight: 47 %
increase of appetite: 46 %
disappearing of preputial inflammation: 45 %
changes in fur-quality: 32 %
bladder incontinence: 9 %
changes in scelettal growth: 3%

castrated bitches have a higher risk of :
adipositas (2x)
Heart tumors (8x)
acute fatal Pancreatitis (8x)
bladder incontinence (8x)
Haemangioma
thyreoideal cancer
Hyperthyreosis (I think this is a mistake in my literature it should be Hypothyreosis)
Ulcera of kidney an bladder

chronical Keratitis
decrease of muscle and soft tissue
risk of death during surgery

in males:

Adipositas (2x)
prostata cancer
ulcera of kidney or bladder
Diabetes mell.
Hyperthyreosis
death during surgery

There are also great benefits on the other side but these normally are well known.

24-02-2010, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Western Europe and the USA.

Ina, you're definitely right about this, it's not the first time I've seen the cultural differences (nor will it be the last!)

Although, I'm definitely against declawing cats, and I rarely approve of behavioral drugs, let alone the way they're tossed about like candy here!

Regarding the medical and behavioral benefits/cons to neutering, this is why I love that article I posted. It breaks down all the different behaviors and medical issues that have been scientifically studied (with references to actual studies) for both intact and fixed animals. It gives statistics that I think are important to see when making decisions about what to do with your dogs. I think it's very fair in the way it presents everything (not taking a side for or against) so I think it's a good read!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 24-02-2010, 14:30

Sure it is, I simply come to diffent conclusions or better think that there is no general conclusion.
I have looked up if the German study has been translated but it seems it has not. It is a whole paper showing up much more aspects and the author has collected datas from more than 1000 owners and asked every dogsschool for their experiences. This combined with the medical point of view gives a more objective view to many aspects.
Especially when you look at castration in very early age you will find a 100% pro if you ask a surgeon, the same in your study as far as I remember, you will come to nearly 100% contra if you ask German dogschools and most owners. It´s almost only pro is the much easier and quicker surgery and the study showed that the very often denied cons clearly exist.

23-02-2010, 16:33	#4
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I am watching at spayed/neutered animals as a vet since more than two decades and did and do those surgeries myself. There are good reasons for this surgery and also very good reasons against which have to be seen at in every individual case because once you have the surgery done there is no way of making it undone. In the German animal protection law the amputation of bodyparts without medical reason is strictly forbidden, to do it just because a hurricane may come one day is surely no medical reason. That there is no way to controle a freeranging cat is seen as a reason and as we have lots of cats that are allowed to live a normal cat-life involving leaving the house without the owner is seen as enough reason to castrate it, additional to the health problem of persisting heat in female not spayed cats. As we have almost no free running (not within the reach of the owner) dogs and no health problem in dogs that aren´t mating it is a difficult question in our country. I think to ask this questions is right. That some day some bodypart may get ill is no medical reason as long as there is no genetic mutation. Though these surgeries are done I do believe that you have to decide on every case looking at every point involved. I find it highly questionable from an ethical point of view to spay/neuter in general in a country where it is not usual that the dogs run free without their owner and therefor it is very easy to prevent unwished litters. It of course is different in countries where there a big amounts of stray dogs but in most parts of the US it is not even allowed to let your dog run of leash, and also in the UK straying dogs are not the normal way dogs are kept. That there has been a hurricane in the Caymans can´t be a reason to spay dogs in Maine, USA or Berlin, Germany. That you have male and female dogs together that shouldn´t breed which each other and you can´t seperate them properly may be a reason. Again, there are good reasons for castration but to do it simply on every individual that is not meant to go into breeding (from a strictly human point of view also) for me is unethical. Ina Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 23-02-2010 at 16:36.

24-02-2010, 09:18	#6
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As we work as behaviorists as a main job and there has been a lot of communication and research done here in the last years I can tell you that neutering hasn´t got the big behavioural effects as it is meant to have. It only has effects on cases that are only caused by sexual hormons,which are not very many and can be checked in advance by medical castration. before neutering. And it also can have very negativ behavioural effects! I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Europe and the USA. We also don´t declaw cats because they could scratch or destroy for example. The use of drugs for behavioral treatment is also of a much lower amount. If the argument is unwished offspring there is the way of sterilisation which has the same effect but doesn´t change the hormonal status. I also work for a very big animal shelter and can tell you that we only see very few cases of unwished puppies of German owners. Most litters are of rescued dogs out of countries with stray dogs, where of course like I wrote before neutering is the best way to go (and would be legal in Germany). I talked of familiy pets in "normal" countries where dogs live with their family and don´t run free, especially not being in heat. Do you really think it is not possible to find as many responsible people in the USA as in Germany? Do you really think free ranging dogs are such a big problem in cities like New York which is said to have a very high amount of dogs? I think in those cases the real problem is the clean carpet and furniture and the unwillingness of the owner to do some basic dog training. And that is a point of view I find irresponsible. And even if people in the US are so different it doesn´t mean than that your point of view fits on all other countries. Ina Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 24-02-2010 at 15:57.

24-02-2010, 11:41	#9
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Hi Ina, this got a bit off-topic but very interesting, as I considered spaying my bitch if she would not be used for breeding. This is of course not relevan now, but I would like to know if you consider for example false pregnancies as a good reason to spay a bitch. It seems to me, from the behavioral point of view, to be quite distressing to the bitch to go through it every heat, but maybe I am wrong. I don't mean the severe cases, where the bitch starts producing milk, but just a mild one, where she starts being really ravenous and doesn't enjoy walks and generally behaves as if she was pregnant. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

24-02-2010, 14:30	#12
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Sure it is, I simply come to diffent conclusions or better think that there is no general conclusion. I have looked up if the German study has been translated but it seems it has not. It is a whole paper showing up much more aspects and the author has collected datas from more than 1000 owners and asked every dogsschool for their experiences. This combined with the medical point of view gives a more objective view to many aspects. Especially when you look at castration in very early age you will find a 100% pro if you ask a surgeon, the same in your study as far as I remember, you will come to nearly 100% contra if you ask German dogschools and most owners. It´s almost only pro is the much easier and quicker surgery and the study showed that the very often denied cons clearly exist. Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 24-02-2010 at 14:36.

23-02-2010, 15:33	#1
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners. Ina

24-02-2010, 00:10	#5
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	Scientific article on the pros and cons of spaying and castrating dogs and cats I got from another pet forum : http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering As for my own opinion, I have seen far too many irresponsible people to have your point of view, Ina. I may be disillusioned, but I feel that with as many "accidents" I've seen, and with as many behavioral problems that neutering could help fix as I've seen, I definitely feel that any dog that isn't working or showing and going to be bred in the future should be fixed. With such a pet overpopulation, and with all the problems with people irresponsibly breeding mixed dogs, I just wouldn't feel comfortable selling a dog without either a co-ownership clause or a spay/neuter clause in the contract. As the breeder, it's your responsibility if the person you sell a puppy to has an "Oops" litter. I guess I just don't have as much faith in humanity as you do!

24-02-2010, 11:29	#7
miran Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 245	for both there are thinks to say of course. because neutering can have good and bad sites. I think every situation is different. If I had one breed and all healthy I must be honest to say that I wouldn't let them be neutered. But in my case if you're dogs run together,different breeds etc I made the choice of neutering two breeds. And because there are already so-many pets I can understand that a breeder wants that a litter will be neutered too on the right age. Like you both say it got every thing to do with responsible or irresponsible people and they are in every country. But I still have a question for Ina. In my case I come to you're vet and ask as a responsible dog owner with my reason why, to let them neutered,what will he/she do then? Let them intact so they have to spend there lives in a kennel or help them so they can be free?