Gastric Contortion (Bloat) in CsV?

bite · 18-03-2010, 10:58

lots of info here:
http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm#Causes

Enid Black · 18-03-2010, 12:35

Very interesting Link, Bite! Even because it gives some advices that I usually found the other way round: here it says: Do not use an elevated food bowl, the question is: why?
I've always read that we should NOT use ground food bowls, but that we should keep the bowl at the same level as the stomach, to allow the gases and the air to go away while the dog is eating.

It is even interesting to notice that too many burps are as worrying as no burps at all.

bite · 18-03-2010, 13:02

Just in my opinion about bowls... you know how wolfs are eating? Yes, they're eating from the ground level, they don't put their meal on some rock or tree... so I think, that the natural (low) level should be kept for csv as well.

Enid Black · 18-03-2010, 13:54

That's right Bite, but our wolfdogs don't eat hard and rare meat, just hunted and fresh (even if not tender unless they hunted a puppy or so), they eat dryfood at a much higher speed than a wolf can eat its prey (it has to separate meat from bone, and wild animals have harder meat because they make a lot of movement).
So, it would make sense with a BARF diet, but with dryfood? How does it behave inside the stomach? How would the gas exit better? These are questions that need an answer before taking a decision...

I am very interested in knowing everyone's experience and opinion, and if I question an answer is only to give more answers to our WHYs

...

bite · 18-03-2010, 14:59

now I'm confused

all my dogs were always eating from ground level and any of them had any problems... but yes, they were quite small comparing to csv... I wonder what vet says about all this bowl level problem

Enid Black · 18-03-2010, 15:44

I didn't want to confuse you ^^... Yes, what is vet's word?

(as soon as I have time, I'll translate the link you posted on Italian Forum: we discussed a bit of bloat few weeks ago, and I am sure we will have other opinions... some of them may answer directly here I think...)

yukidomari · 18-03-2010, 17:26

Ah, bloat. A fear for many dog owners.. We’ve learned a lot about bloat for our Dobe.. This is what I can say about it..

Regarding the elevated or unelevated bowls.. there is no conclusive opinion one way or the other. It still is up in the air whether or not one is better.. some say yes.. some say no. A recently published Perdue study says not being elevated is better, but it’s not conclusive.

Regarding dog food – Only dog food containing Vitamin C should not be watered down prior to consumption from what I have learned.. keep in mind that "vitamin C" is not usually what is listed on the bag.. sometimes it is called "citric acid" as well. Doing so will cause the food to expand a lot in the dogs’ stomach.

Why would someone water down food in the first place? Well.. a lot of the higher protein foods like EVO and Orijen should preferably only be used with dogs who get adequate hydration (for kidney/liver health).. Orijen is roughly 40% protein.. when fed a raw diet, a huge portion of the diet is water. That means that without adequate hydration, Orijen is higher in protein levels than a raw diet.. watering down the food is the easiest way to get hydration. Worry not though, both EVO and Orijen can be safely watered down.

What is said about bloat is that feeding one large meal at a time is not preferable, either.

I think all this information regarding bloat is in regards to kibble-fed dogs, though. Our three are on a prey-model raw diet. In feeding raw, a lot of things above don’t apply .. we feed by a gorge-fast method.. meaning the dog will eat 1 or 2 times their daily allotment and then be fasted for the next day or so. Obviously, this should not be attempted with kibbles.. the breakdown is completely different. There is anecdotal evidence that kibble itself is to blame for a lot of bloat episodes, although I have known very rare cases (exactly 1) in which raw-fed dogs also bloated.

Something that Boxer, Great Dane, and some other large Mastiff owners (and other breeds really prone to bloat) do is have a gastropexy done. This basically staples the stomach to the inside wall of the abdominal cavity. Bloat can still occur- but the torsion (twisting) cannot. You must still get your dog to the vet and have emergency care given, but the twisting of the gut is one of the most dangerous parts of bloat that can be prevented with a gastropexy.

18-03-2010, 10:58	#1
bite Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Vilnius Posts: 105	lots of info here: http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm#Causes

18-03-2010, 12:35	#2
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	Very interesting Link, Bite! Even because it gives some advices that I usually found the other way round: here it says: Do not use an elevated food bowl, the question is: why? I've always read that we should NOT use ground food bowls, but that we should keep the bowl at the same level as the stomach, to allow the gases and the air to go away while the dog is eating. It is even interesting to notice that too many burps are as worrying as no burps at all.

18-03-2010, 13:02	#3
bite Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Vilnius Posts: 105	Just in my opinion about bowls... you know how wolfs are eating? Yes, they're eating from the ground level, they don't put their meal on some rock or tree... so I think, that the natural (low) level should be kept for csv as well.

18-03-2010, 13:54	#4
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	That's right Bite, but our wolfdogs don't eat hard and rare meat, just hunted and fresh (even if not tender unless they hunted a puppy or so), they eat dryfood at a much higher speed than a wolf can eat its prey (it has to separate meat from bone, and wild animals have harder meat because they make a lot of movement). So, it would make sense with a BARF diet, but with dryfood? How does it behave inside the stomach? How would the gas exit better? These are questions that need an answer before taking a decision... I am very interested in knowing everyone's experience and opinion, and if I question an answer is only to give more answers to our WHYs ...

18-03-2010, 14:59	#5
bite Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Vilnius Posts: 105	now I'm confused all my dogs were always eating from ground level and any of them had any problems... but yes, they were quite small comparing to csv... I wonder what vet says about all this bowl level problem

18-03-2010, 15:44	#6
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	I didn't want to confuse you ^^... Yes, what is vet's word? (as soon as I have time, I'll translate the link you posted on Italian Forum: we discussed a bit of bloat few weeks ago, and I am sure we will have other opinions... some of them may answer directly here I think...)

18-03-2010, 17:26	#7
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Ah, bloat. A fear for many dog owners.. We’ve learned a lot about bloat for our Dobe.. This is what I can say about it.. Regarding the elevated or unelevated bowls.. there is no conclusive opinion one way or the other. It still is up in the air whether or not one is better.. some say yes.. some say no. A recently published Perdue study says not being elevated is better, but it’s not conclusive. Regarding dog food – Only dog food containing Vitamin C should not be watered down prior to consumption from what I have learned.. keep in mind that "vitamin C" is not usually what is listed on the bag.. sometimes it is called "citric acid" as well. Doing so will cause the food to expand a lot in the dogs’ stomach. Why would someone water down food in the first place? Well.. a lot of the higher protein foods like EVO and Orijen should preferably only be used with dogs who get adequate hydration (for kidney/liver health).. Orijen is roughly 40% protein.. when fed a raw diet, a huge portion of the diet is water. That means that without adequate hydration, Orijen is higher in protein levels than a raw diet.. watering down the food is the easiest way to get hydration. Worry not though, both EVO and Orijen can be safely watered down. What is said about bloat is that feeding one large meal at a time is not preferable, either. I think all this information regarding bloat is in regards to kibble-fed dogs, though. Our three are on a prey-model raw diet. In feeding raw, a lot of things above don’t apply .. we feed by a gorge-fast method.. meaning the dog will eat 1 or 2 times their daily allotment and then be fasted for the next day or so. Obviously, this should not be attempted with kibbles.. the breakdown is completely different. There is anecdotal evidence that kibble itself is to blame for a lot of bloat episodes, although I have known very rare cases (exactly 1) in which raw-fed dogs also bloated. Something that Boxer, Great Dane, and some other large Mastiff owners (and other breeds really prone to bloat) do is have a gastropexy done. This basically staples the stomach to the inside wall of the abdominal cavity. Bloat can still occur- but the torsion (twisting) cannot. You must still get your dog to the vet and have emergency care given, but the twisting of the gut is one of the most dangerous parts of bloat that can be prevented with a gastropexy.