Gastric Contortion (Bloat) in CsV?

yukidomari · 18-03-2010, 17:26

Ah, bloat. A fear for many dog owners.. We’ve learned a lot about bloat for our Dobe.. This is what I can say about it..

Regarding the elevated or unelevated bowls.. there is no conclusive opinion one way or the other. It still is up in the air whether or not one is better.. some say yes.. some say no. A recently published Perdue study says not being elevated is better, but it’s not conclusive.

Regarding dog food – Only dog food containing Vitamin C should not be watered down prior to consumption from what I have learned.. keep in mind that "vitamin C" is not usually what is listed on the bag.. sometimes it is called "citric acid" as well. Doing so will cause the food to expand a lot in the dogs’ stomach.

Why would someone water down food in the first place? Well.. a lot of the higher protein foods like EVO and Orijen should preferably only be used with dogs who get adequate hydration (for kidney/liver health).. Orijen is roughly 40% protein.. when fed a raw diet, a huge portion of the diet is water. That means that without adequate hydration, Orijen is higher in protein levels than a raw diet.. watering down the food is the easiest way to get hydration. Worry not though, both EVO and Orijen can be safely watered down.

What is said about bloat is that feeding one large meal at a time is not preferable, either.

I think all this information regarding bloat is in regards to kibble-fed dogs, though. Our three are on a prey-model raw diet. In feeding raw, a lot of things above don’t apply .. we feed by a gorge-fast method.. meaning the dog will eat 1 or 2 times their daily allotment and then be fasted for the next day or so. Obviously, this should not be attempted with kibbles.. the breakdown is completely different. There is anecdotal evidence that kibble itself is to blame for a lot of bloat episodes, although I have known very rare cases (exactly 1) in which raw-fed dogs also bloated.

Something that Boxer, Great Dane, and some other large Mastiff owners (and other breeds really prone to bloat) do is have a gastropexy done. This basically staples the stomach to the inside wall of the abdominal cavity. Bloat can still occur- but the torsion (twisting) cannot. You must still get your dog to the vet and have emergency care given, but the twisting of the gut is one of the most dangerous parts of bloat that can be prevented with a gastropexy.

Enid Black · 18-03-2010, 21:17

Regarding Gastropexy, I've read that it isn't always working. A dog that had a bloat and torsion can have it again, so one should be extra-careful. Sometimes the gastropexy just gives more time to operate but does not solve the problem...

yukidomari · 18-03-2010, 21:20

No, it certainly doesn't solve the problem. All it can do is perhaps lessen the impact and buy a bit more time. Bloat can still happen, for sure.

If people do it here, they do it around 6mth to 1 yr of age, usually before the dog has ever had a chance to bloat. It's usually done at the same time the animal is spayed/neutered, which is widely regarded around here as part of pet ownership.

Enid Black · 18-03-2010, 21:24

Exactly. I am not saying I wouldn't do it should it happen, but I think I would not do it as a prevention (it's still an operation). BUT I would make sure that I do not endanger my dog (I will make sure I won't endanger mu future dog... I'll have to wait...)

yukidomari · 18-03-2010, 21:28

As I understand it, spay/neuter is not standard in Europe.. so for sure I would think about a gastropexy more if I were in your shoes. In the states, most people besides breeders or others involved in show or performance events will generally spay or neuter their dogs, so, again, it is an operation nonetheless but usually we combine the spaying/neutering and the gastropexy if we decide to have one. And in that way, here it is used as a preventative many times.

Enid Black · 18-03-2010, 21:35

You're right Yukidomari, especially in Italy we usually think twice before operating our pets. Sometimes is just ignorance, I have to admit, but usually we do not like to "cut" them unnecessarily. Plus, neutering a bitch means "opening" her, but neutering a male one is just a small cut... even if they both need complete anaesthesia...

michaelundinaeichhorn · 18-03-2010, 22:23

Statistics showed that dry food in general gives a higher risk than raw feeding or can food. The bigger the meal is, the higher the risk, one meal a day is riskier than more meals a day (but still a high amount keeps riskier).
To give left overs from the owners meals lowers the risk etremely (59%), to add can food also (28%) but not as much as left overs.
To give only one kind of food have a three times higher risk than dogs with changes in their diet.
The reason seems to be that dogs that are fed with dry food have the biggest stomaches (the ones with one meal a day the most) with the longest tissues compared with other dogs what makes the stomach turn more easily. Dogs with a turned stomach have longer tissues than normal dogs.
Dogs with under-avarage weight that suffered a severe or chronic disease in their youth have a higher risk in general.
As far as I know it has never been really proved that high activity after feeding can cause a turned stomach.
Dogs with a broad deep chest and giant breeds have a much higher risk, the theory is that their is more place for the stomach to turn. And as far as I can see CSW have a quite low risk but of course as all dogs can get one. Here in my opinion the reason is - like so often that the wolf exterieur is the one that has prooven the best - a not deep and broad chest, contrairy to a GSD.

Ina

18-03-2010, 21:20	#3
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	No, it certainly doesn't solve the problem. All it can do is perhaps lessen the impact and buy a bit more time. Bloat can still happen, for sure. If people do it here, they do it around 6mth to 1 yr of age, usually before the dog has ever had a chance to bloat. It's usually done at the same time the animal is spayed/neutered, which is widely regarded around here as part of pet ownership. Last edited by yukidomari; 18-03-2010 at 21:23. Reason: adding info!

18-03-2010, 17:26	#1
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Ah, bloat. A fear for many dog owners.. We’ve learned a lot about bloat for our Dobe.. This is what I can say about it.. Regarding the elevated or unelevated bowls.. there is no conclusive opinion one way or the other. It still is up in the air whether or not one is better.. some say yes.. some say no. A recently published Perdue study says not being elevated is better, but it’s not conclusive. Regarding dog food – Only dog food containing Vitamin C should not be watered down prior to consumption from what I have learned.. keep in mind that "vitamin C" is not usually what is listed on the bag.. sometimes it is called "citric acid" as well. Doing so will cause the food to expand a lot in the dogs’ stomach. Why would someone water down food in the first place? Well.. a lot of the higher protein foods like EVO and Orijen should preferably only be used with dogs who get adequate hydration (for kidney/liver health).. Orijen is roughly 40% protein.. when fed a raw diet, a huge portion of the diet is water. That means that without adequate hydration, Orijen is higher in protein levels than a raw diet.. watering down the food is the easiest way to get hydration. Worry not though, both EVO and Orijen can be safely watered down. What is said about bloat is that feeding one large meal at a time is not preferable, either. I think all this information regarding bloat is in regards to kibble-fed dogs, though. Our three are on a prey-model raw diet. In feeding raw, a lot of things above don’t apply .. we feed by a gorge-fast method.. meaning the dog will eat 1 or 2 times their daily allotment and then be fasted for the next day or so. Obviously, this should not be attempted with kibbles.. the breakdown is completely different. There is anecdotal evidence that kibble itself is to blame for a lot of bloat episodes, although I have known very rare cases (exactly 1) in which raw-fed dogs also bloated. Something that Boxer, Great Dane, and some other large Mastiff owners (and other breeds really prone to bloat) do is have a gastropexy done. This basically staples the stomach to the inside wall of the abdominal cavity. Bloat can still occur- but the torsion (twisting) cannot. You must still get your dog to the vet and have emergency care given, but the twisting of the gut is one of the most dangerous parts of bloat that can be prevented with a gastropexy.

18-03-2010, 21:17	#2
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	Regarding Gastropexy, I've read that it isn't always working. A dog that had a bloat and torsion can have it again, so one should be extra-careful. Sometimes the gastropexy just gives more time to operate but does not solve the problem...

18-03-2010, 21:24	#4
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	Exactly. I am not saying I wouldn't do it should it happen, but I think I would not do it as a prevention (it's still an operation). BUT I would make sure that I do not endanger my dog (I will make sure I won't endanger mu future dog... I'll have to wait...)

18-03-2010, 21:28	#5
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	As I understand it, spay/neuter is not standard in Europe.. so for sure I would think about a gastropexy more if I were in your shoes. In the states, most people besides breeders or others involved in show or performance events will generally spay or neuter their dogs, so, again, it is an operation nonetheless but usually we combine the spaying/neutering and the gastropexy if we decide to have one. And in that way, here it is used as a preventative many times.

18-03-2010, 21:35	#6
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	You're right Yukidomari, especially in Italy we usually think twice before operating our pets. Sometimes is just ignorance, I have to admit, but usually we do not like to "cut" them unnecessarily. Plus, neutering a bitch means "opening" her, but neutering a male one is just a small cut... even if they both need complete anaesthesia...

18-03-2010, 22:23	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Statistics showed that dry food in general gives a higher risk than raw feeding or can food. The bigger the meal is, the higher the risk, one meal a day is riskier than more meals a day (but still a high amount keeps riskier). To give left overs from the owners meals lowers the risk etremely (59%), to add can food also (28%) but not as much as left overs. To give only one kind of food have a three times higher risk than dogs with changes in their diet. The reason seems to be that dogs that are fed with dry food have the biggest stomaches (the ones with one meal a day the most) with the longest tissues compared with other dogs what makes the stomach turn more easily. Dogs with a turned stomach have longer tissues than normal dogs. Dogs with under-avarage weight that suffered a severe or chronic disease in their youth have a higher risk in general. As far as I know it has never been really proved that high activity after feeding can cause a turned stomach. Dogs with a broad deep chest and giant breeds have a much higher risk, the theory is that their is more place for the stomach to turn. And as far as I can see CSW have a quite low risk but of course as all dogs can get one. Here in my opinion the reason is - like so often that the wolf exterieur is the one that has prooven the best - a not deep and broad chest, contrairy to a GSD. Ina