Working Kennels

Gypsy Wolf · 13-05-2010, 00:20

To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.
Coming from Malinois and German highline German Shepherds, I do not expect the vlcak to BE either of these breeds, but to have some characteristics that they do - traits that make a good working dog. Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.
To Mikael and Ina, I greatly appreciate your input. My girlfriend and I have both fallen in love with the vlcak and don't want to change them or expect them to be a different breed, but we want to preserve and enhance working characteristics in the breed - the goal, eventually, to be known for good working vlcaks. Of course, this will be some time in the future as our current vlcaks are just infants, and who knows what the future holds...
In any breeding program, care must be taken to stay true to the breed, so that there IS no dichotomy between "pretty" vlcaks and "working" vlcaks.
There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?
I do know a Schutzhund helper who says the lighter a dog's eyes are the nervier it is. I do not have the same experience with eye color, as I have worked with a broad spectrum of breeds - many of whom have a range of eye color. He focuses on German, Dutch & Belgian Shepherds...
So I look forward to seeing the evolution of the vlcak toward the ideal that Karel Hartl envisioned... after all, that is the goal, right?

yukidomari · 13-05-2010, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true?

I do believe there is some correlation between physiology and behavior - sort of a removed example, but I think you'd find the Russian silver fox domestication project very interesting.

Ear dropping, tail wagging, and different fur colors appeared in the group of foxes selectively bred for generations for human friendliness. Also, the skull morphology is markedly broader than their wild, unfriendly cousins.

Gypsy Wolf · 13-05-2010, 02:27

I know in GSD the "coated" dogs do possess more collie-like characteristics than their short-haired counterparts. Collies had been introduced to the GSD back in the day and the plush coat, longer face, softer ears and softer temperament pop up frequently - at least in the "highlines"...
And in both mixed-breed litters or major out-cross litters, the general rule of thumb is that the pup will behave more like the parent it resembles.
I will say that I see a lot of potential in both my Luna and my girlfriend's Pollux. What remains to be seen is if we are capable of fully developing those gifts. I do firmly believe that my dogs' only limitations are my own ability to teach them.

Hanka · 13-05-2010, 06:13

For Lunas mom: you wrote:
Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.

It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,(

) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (the pleasure, quick work,quick aport with pleasure, very quick hunting and bitting of figurant.......) There is really different......

Rona · 13-05-2010, 07:34

I've been reading your posts and have the repeated impression that with one exception you're mixing work and sport! BTW thanks Ina for the great posts, you've verbalised my own reflections.

I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties.

We used to have a truly working csv (without a pedigree and looking more like the first csv) that just by accompanying my husband in his field work trained herself to act geological resarch dog. Gradually, human teams relied more and more on her senses: she clearly signalled if a fresh wall in a quarry was approachable or not, she was able to 'gather' the team back after they worked individually in a difficult area (no mobile phones in the 90-ties!), when given the order she could easily find rocks croppin out in very dense forrests, etc, etc.
At home lazy sofa dog, in the field was turning into another animal: quick, exteremely rational and reliable, brave, fit and smart. Still, she was very independent and logical even if this was not human logic - this way she saved at least three people if not from death than surly from serious injuries. When completing a mission she didn't run after wild animals; deers and rabbits could walk next to her nose when she was trailing. What's more she loved that kind of work and when 'retired' at the age of 11-12, we had to give her tasks, otherwise she was getting depressed.

BUT, whenever we wanted her to show off in front of our friends how smart she was - she'd often pretnd a dummy and thus taught us modesty!

Lorka is not even two-years old, so I wouldn't dare to speculate what kind of dog she'd be when she fully matures, but she too, is able to recognise authentic, genuine sitautions from the pretended "mock" ones.
I suppose this is connected with am average very high level of empathy - we simply cannot fool our dogs!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-05-2010, 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal.

As far as I did understand their main job was to track down intruders in the border corridor without their handler and not mainly to attack on command. Very different to Schutzhund.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

For Lunas mom: you wrote:
Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well.

It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,(

) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (,quick aport with pleasure, v) There is really different......

I would really like to hear in which real protection situation an intense eye on the handler or a quick aport with pleasure is of any use. I don´t come from this side of sports and can´t make any judgement apart from just looking at the training, but I think I would rather prefer a dog with a quick eye on the dangerous person that will protect me without command when necessary because it understands the difference between fake and reality.
If I want a dog that finds and aports lost things this is a different thing and training and doesn´t require quick aport but mainly concentrated search.

Cause I made the same experiences like Rona

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties.

And for me this is much more important for a real working dog but of course a big problem with a sport dog.
I doubt, that the military was selecting for a sports dog.

Ina

GalomyOak · 13-05-2010, 12:35

I think I can see my own comparison in Bongo. We are training with a Schutzhund group (mostly just for fun - it's free, and I enjoy the positive reinforcement techniques my instructor emphasizes - Bongo thinks it's a great time to play and socialize!). In training, he follows commands, not even a hair of shyness. When the helpers come in with the loud whip, the other young dogs look, back away - and of course some act like normal GSD/Malinois and want to lunge. Bongo looks, then looks to my expression. We he sees I do nothing, he goes to the helper (who has met before), and looks for play - or to cuddle! He will bite the burlap, and hang on, because he knows I want him to, or maybe because he wants to play - but you can clearly see, he sees NO threat. He is very quick with "Aus!"

However, on another day, I was alone with Bongo on the beach - no other people there, or so I thought. I was on my cell phone, and bent over looking for something in my bag while walking. A lone, unfamiliar man (who i didn't see) approached us quickly from behind a dune. Bongo let out the most fierce bark and growl - it startled even me coming from my sweet boy! The man stopped, Bongo never moved his gaze, tail straight up, no sign of backing away. I greeted the man, and when Bongo knew it was okay and I knew the situation and took control, he let the man pet him, rub him, and even laid on his back after about 3 minutes for the man - no tension, no problem. They are so quick to recognize what is real!

Gypsy Wolf · 13-05-2010, 17:20

Hanka, if I can find a place to stay as a guest, I am sure I can find the money for a plane ticket - I would LOVE to watch the flashy, sharp vlcaks doing incredible sportwork and learn more about the breed and teaching them (note that I said "teaching" rather than "training")...
Rona, to me "work" can mean both "sport" or "real-life" - "work" to me, means any venue in which a vlcak needs to use it's skills, talent and training. So "work" can mean Schutzhund sport, man-trailing, water rescue, agility... all of those are "jobs" for the vlcak and handler, so it is "work."
I am sure that every vlcak has it's own preferences.
My own dogs have shown me that - my GSD and my Malinois are not particularly interested in playing the "game" of Schutzhund, though both have proven they are excellent in real-life protection situations as well as trailing (without having trained for that!).
So if my Luna doesn't find Schutzhund to her liking as she matures, I will find the venue she prefers and work in that. Schutzhund is a fun sport but it isn't the ultimate breed-worthiness tool in my opinion.
As an aside, one of the GSD puppies I produced in my first (and only, so far) litter, CHOSE the sport of Schutzhund as her preferred interest, and her handlers got so into the sport they have now added a Malinois to their home and are training to be serious competitors on a National (and perhaps World) level with them. Prior to getting the puppy, they didn't even know what Schutzhund was!

Rona · 14-05-2010, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Rona, to me "work" can mean both "sport" or "real-life" - "work" to me, means any venue in which a vlcak needs to use it's skills, talent and training. So "work" can mean Schutzhund sport, man-trailing, water rescue, agility... all of those are "jobs" for the vlcak and handler, so it is "work."
!

Let me expain the difference, as I see it, on a funny but real-life example:
1. you take your dog to a dog school to teach her recall - all GSDs repeat the command as many times as the owner wishes. Vlcak comes nicely a few times (rewarded!) but sooner or later gets bored, slows down, starts watching other dogs and people, etc. - this is training

2. you take your dog out to a park to socialize with other dogs. When called, other dogs come to their owners more or less at once; a vlcak comes OK (rewarded!), but it will take her a minute to finish her own businesses first, e.g. to say goodbye to her dog friends

- this is sport

3. the same situation in the park, but somebody notices city guards' are parking the van. All the owners call their dogs to put muzzles on to avoid being fined. Vlcak comes first, runs like a lightning and sits in front of the owner - this is work.

13-05-2010, 07:34	#5
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	I've been reading your posts and have the repeated impression that with one exception you're mixing work and sport! BTW thanks Ina for the great posts, you've verbalised my own reflections. I only wanted to draw you attention to the fact that most csv can easily recognize which tasks are authentic and which are not. This may have important implications for the training methods and explain some of the difficulties. We used to have a truly working csv (without a pedigree and looking more like the first csv) that just by accompanying my husband in his field work trained herself to act geological resarch dog. Gradually, human teams relied more and more on her senses: she clearly signalled if a fresh wall in a quarry was approachable or not, she was able to 'gather' the team back after they worked individually in a difficult area (no mobile phones in the 90-ties!), when given the order she could easily find rocks croppin out in very dense forrests, etc, etc. At home lazy sofa dog, in the field was turning into another animal: quick, exteremely rational and reliable, brave, fit and smart. Still, she was very independent and logical even if this was not human logic - this way she saved at least three people if not from death than surly from serious injuries. When completing a mission she didn't run after wild animals; deers and rabbits could walk next to her nose when she was trailing. What's more she loved that kind of work and when 'retired' at the age of 11-12, we had to give her tasks, otherwise she was getting depressed. BUT, whenever we wanted her to show off in front of our friends how smart she was - she'd often pretnd a dummy and thus taught us modesty! Lorka is not even two-years old, so I wouldn't dare to speculate what kind of dog she'd be when she fully matures, but she too, is able to recognise authentic, genuine sitautions from the pretended "mock" ones. I suppose this is connected with am average very high level of empathy - we simply cannot fool our dogs! __________________

13-05-2010, 12:35	#7
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	I think I can see my own comparison in Bongo. We are training with a Schutzhund group (mostly just for fun - it's free, and I enjoy the positive reinforcement techniques my instructor emphasizes - Bongo thinks it's a great time to play and socialize!). In training, he follows commands, not even a hair of shyness. When the helpers come in with the loud whip, the other young dogs look, back away - and of course some act like normal GSD/Malinois and want to lunge. Bongo looks, then looks to my expression. We he sees I do nothing, he goes to the helper (who has met before), and looks for play - or to cuddle! He will bite the burlap, and hang on, because he knows I want him to, or maybe because he wants to play - but you can clearly see, he sees NO threat. He is very quick with "Aus!" However, on another day, I was alone with Bongo on the beach - no other people there, or so I thought. I was on my cell phone, and bent over looking for something in my bag while walking. A lone, unfamiliar man (who i didn't see) approached us quickly from behind a dune. Bongo let out the most fierce bark and growl - it startled even me coming from my sweet boy! The man stopped, Bongo never moved his gaze, tail straight up, no sign of backing away. I greeted the man, and when Bongo knew it was okay and I knew the situation and took control, he let the man pet him, rub him, and even laid on his back after about 3 minutes for the man - no tension, no problem. They are so quick to recognize what is real! __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

13-05-2010, 00:20	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	To Hanka, from my interpretation of the working requirements in the initial development of the breed, they were supposed to be excellent working dogs. That was the goal. Coming from Malinois and German highline German Shepherds, I do not expect the vlcak to BE either of these breeds, but to have some characteristics that they do - traits that make a good working dog. Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well. To Mikael and Ina, I greatly appreciate your input. My girlfriend and I have both fallen in love with the vlcak and don't want to change them or expect them to be a different breed, but we want to preserve and enhance working characteristics in the breed - the goal, eventually, to be known for good working vlcaks. Of course, this will be some time in the future as our current vlcaks are just infants, and who knows what the future holds... In any breeding program, care must be taken to stay true to the breed, so that there IS no dichotomy between "pretty" vlcaks and "working" vlcaks. There is a school of thought that holds that genes "bundle" - so, in theory, the vlcaks that look more "shepherdy" would behave like a shepherd and the "wolfier" ones would behave more like a wolf... has anyone seen this to be true? I do know a Schutzhund helper who says the lighter a dog's eyes are the nervier it is. I do not have the same experience with eye color, as I have worked with a broad spectrum of breeds - many of whom have a range of eye color. He focuses on German, Dutch & Belgian Shepherds... So I look forward to seeing the evolution of the vlcak toward the ideal that Karel Hartl envisioned... after all, that is the goal, right?

13-05-2010, 02:27	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I know in GSD the "coated" dogs do possess more collie-like characteristics than their short-haired counterparts. Collies had been introduced to the GSD back in the day and the plush coat, longer face, softer ears and softer temperament pop up frequently - at least in the "highlines"... And in both mixed-breed litters or major out-cross litters, the general rule of thumb is that the pup will behave more like the parent it resembles. I will say that I see a lot of potential in both my Luna and my girlfriend's Pollux. What remains to be seen is if we are capable of fully developing those gifts. I do firmly believe that my dogs' only limitations are my own ability to teach them.

13-05-2010, 06:13	#4
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	For Lunas mom: you wrote: Training, of course, counts heavily in how a vlcak looks while working (intense eye on handler, flashy obedience, etc.) but I do think a good vlcak with a good trainer would be able to compete in the same circles and do well. It is a pitty, you are so far from us. If you will come in future to trip to Czech,( ) I can take you to some training place where train wolfdogs and you can see different between working "normal" wolfdogs and wolfdogs with nature working possibility..... (the pleasure, quick work,quick aport with pleasure, very quick hunting and bitting of figurant.......) There is really different......

13-05-2010, 17:20	#8
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Hanka, if I can find a place to stay as a guest, I am sure I can find the money for a plane ticket - I would LOVE to watch the flashy, sharp vlcaks doing incredible sportwork and learn more about the breed and teaching them (note that I said "teaching" rather than "training")... Rona, to me "work" can mean both "sport" or "real-life" - "work" to me, means any venue in which a vlcak needs to use it's skills, talent and training. So "work" can mean Schutzhund sport, man-trailing, water rescue, agility... all of those are "jobs" for the vlcak and handler, so it is "work." I am sure that every vlcak has it's own preferences. My own dogs have shown me that - my GSD and my Malinois are not particularly interested in playing the "game" of Schutzhund, though both have proven they are excellent in real-life protection situations as well as trailing (without having trained for that!). So if my Luna doesn't find Schutzhund to her liking as she matures, I will find the venue she prefers and work in that. Schutzhund is a fun sport but it isn't the ultimate breed-worthiness tool in my opinion. As an aside, one of the GSD puppies I produced in my first (and only, so far) litter, CHOSE the sport of Schutzhund as her preferred interest, and her handlers got so into the sport they have now added a Malinois to their home and are training to be serious competitors on a National (and perhaps World) level with them. Prior to getting the puppy, they didn't even know what Schutzhund was!