Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

GalomyOak · 01-06-2010, 02:43

My understanding...

The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed.

Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise.

Gypsy Wolf · 01-06-2010, 19:58

Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right?
I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists.
In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies...
So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest.
My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters...

Hanka · 01-06-2010, 20:03

Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers

.

AMERICANI · 10-06-2010, 17:22

The key word in....."Responsible Breeder" is..... "responsible". Europe has always done things differently than we have... ENCI is Italy's AKC. 4 of 5 of my dogs are ENCI registered. All 5 are FCI listed. You have to do your homework with this or any other "breed" to keep what you believe to be good and true as such. Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs. Every day I see a "border patrol issue" which makes me all the more stoked, because that is what these guys are for! They are not exactly the Disney promoted "family pet" which we have engraved into our imaginations, but they ARE loyal, loving, and DETERMINED to do things (trained or not). I strongly feel the need to jackhammer this into the heads of all the @#$^&s who keep e-mailing me. My first dog was a Beagle (we bred Beagles)... Aggression was an issue with ours. My second, a half Doberman-half Lab. (the best dog ever). I love my pack (and will do anything for their well-being), but I WILL NOT recommend them to just anyone.

massimo · 11-06-2010, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs.

Have you ever spoken to any Italian Breeder??
Do you know , honestly, what the hell you are talking about??
Italy has the most breeders, they are in fact MANY.
Does this mean they are ALL bad??
good lord...I feel like in a nursery sometimes.

Pavel · 13-06-2010, 15:13

Short bad information for "Mutara lovers" :
Yesterday CZ conference of Club decided to put a new important regulation. All dogs, they want to have CZ CsW pedigree must have minimally since year 1999 all ancestors clear CsW with FCI recognised pedigree (not register, but normally pedigree). Its mean, that is somebody will try to import an CsW with e.g. italian pedigree, in which will be 3 generation CsW, bud by check 6 generation in database will be found, that in 2008 is there some dog with italian register, dont get in CZ the registration as CsW. Such dog have chance get in CZ register pedigree like a hybrid only, but about it must decided CZ Club (register pedigree is not obligatory). Same searching in database will be done by every using the stud or bitch in breed from abroad.

hanninadina · 13-06-2010, 15:26

Pavel, Hanka, your problem is that you are fighting a private war and you are looking to much through the breeders glaces. Don´t you think that their are a lot of people who don´t care what your breeding comittee does? Come down to earth. You have no chance there are more other wolfdogs than Mutaras way inside the csw breed. If you do not be open, you will never get information. I forget the name, but she wrote it here, it is best, when you know everything about these "other" wolfdogs who are brought into the breed, than to hide it or they will be forbidden. These wolfdogs have so many fans that they do not care what you are doing. Work together and than everyone cna decide by himself what he likes more.

The world is turning around and around and no one can stop it! And of course not the czech breeding comittee.

Christian

PS: I am absolute against mixing csw with other wolfdogs! But live and let live.

AMERICANI · 13-06-2010, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Have you ever spoken to any Italian Breeder??
Do you know , honestly, what the hell you are talking about??
Italy has the most breeders, they are in fact MANY.
Does this mean they are ALL bad??
good lord...I feel like in a nursery sometimes.

I have only on occasion spoken to breeders who weren't Italian. 90% of the breeders I know are Italian. I was just highlighting the fact that more does not mean better! And I think you are a bit confused also as to the fact that I was saying not all Italian breeders are bad!

01-06-2010, 02:43	#1
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	My understanding... The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed. Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise. __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

10-06-2010, 17:22	#4
AMERICANI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 111	Responsibility The key word in....."Responsible Breeder" is..... "responsible". Europe has always done things differently than we have... ENCI is Italy's AKC. 4 of 5 of my dogs are ENCI registered. All 5 are FCI listed. You have to do your homework with this or any other "breed" to keep what you believe to be good and true as such. Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs. Every day I see a "border patrol issue" which makes me all the more stoked, because that is what these guys are for! They are not exactly the Disney promoted "family pet" which we have engraved into our imaginations, but they ARE loyal, loving, and DETERMINED to do things (trained or not). I strongly feel the need to jackhammer this into the heads of all the @#$^&s who keep e-mailing me. My first dog was a Beagle (we bred Beagles)... Aggression was an issue with ours. My second, a half Doberman-half Lab. (the best dog ever). I love my pack (and will do anything for their well-being), but I WILL NOT recommend them to just anyone.

01-06-2010, 19:58	#2
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right? I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists. In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies... So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest. My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters...

01-06-2010, 20:03	#3
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers .

13-06-2010, 15:13	#6
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Short bad information for "Mutara lovers" : Yesterday CZ conference of Club decided to put a new important regulation. All dogs, they want to have CZ CsW pedigree must have minimally since year 1999 all ancestors clear CsW with FCI recognised pedigree (not register, but normally pedigree). Its mean, that is somebody will try to import an CsW with e.g. italian pedigree, in which will be 3 generation CsW, bud by check 6 generation in database will be found, that in 2008 is there some dog with italian register, dont get in CZ the registration as CsW. Such dog have chance get in CZ register pedigree like a hybrid only, but about it must decided CZ Club (register pedigree is not obligatory). Same searching in database will be done by every using the stud or bitch in breed from abroad.

13-06-2010, 15:26	#7
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Pavel, Hanka, your problem is that you are fighting a private war and you are looking to much through the breeders glaces. Don´t you think that their are a lot of people who don´t care what your breeding comittee does? Come down to earth. You have no chance there are more other wolfdogs than Mutaras way inside the csw breed. If you do not be open, you will never get information. I forget the name, but she wrote it here, it is best, when you know everything about these "other" wolfdogs who are brought into the breed, than to hide it or they will be forbidden. These wolfdogs have so many fans that they do not care what you are doing. Work together and than everyone cna decide by himself what he likes more. The world is turning around and around and no one can stop it! And of course not the czech breeding comittee. Christian PS: I am absolute against mixing csw with other wolfdogs! But live and let live.