Calculation of Wolf blood?

elf · 09-06-2010, 11:46

Lunas Mom, take a look at Belyaev (foxes) and Tryon (rats) works about effects of selection, it would help to relativise this %.

Quote:

I remember someone on the Italian forum said he did a genetic test on his wolfdogs and it showed that the actual wolf blood percentage was lower than 4%

Must be a post on a 1st April

Rona · 09-06-2010, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Must be a post on a 1st April

So it seems.... if wolf genes evaporated, then GSD must have disappeared as well... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?

Fede86 · 09-06-2010, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

So it seems.... if wolf genes evaporated, then GSD must have disappeared as well... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?

I really wouldn’t know, I’m not an expert in genetics… I guess that a breed has the genes that are passed with the breeding: the genes bringing the traits you breed for are passed, the others are lost. Since in the beginning they bred for character more than for wolfy appearance, it wouldn’t surprise me if the genes of the German Shepherd had taken the upper hand. This matter makes me curious, I think I should test my dog and see, but I’m not really expecting to find much wolf blood in him. Then again, maybe I’m wrong… I’m just wondering, since I can’t see much wolf in the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog. Of course there are exceptions

Rona · 09-06-2010, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fede86

I really wouldn’t know, I’m not an expert in genetics… I guess that a breed has the genes that are passed with the breeding: the genes bringing the traits you breed for are passed, the others are lost. Since in the beginning they bred for character more than for wolfy appearance, it wouldn’t surprise me if the genes of the German Shepherd had taken the upper hand. This matter makes me curious, I think I should test my dog and see, but I’m not really expecting to find much wolf blood in him. Then again, maybe I’m wrong… I’m just wondering, since I can’t see much wolf in the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog. Of course there are exceptions

Well, personally I don't really care how wofish my dog is or what her genotype is..., but... WHY, in your opinion, do CSV play wolves in films? I bet it'd be much easier to train a GSD than a CSV to act wolf....

Angelika · 09-06-2010, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

... I wonder if there are still any genes in our dogs?

I lately discovered some human characteristics in mine

elf · 09-06-2010, 14:30

Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-).
You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication".
To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible.

Fede86 · 09-06-2010, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-).
You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication".
To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible.

Thank you for your explanation, I'll ask more specific information to the person who wrote about the genetic analysis on his dogs to understant what exactly he was referring to when he said they turned out to be less than 4% wolf, because from what you write it probably wasn't what I thought it was. As I said, I'm no expert regarding those matters. Anyway I was first of all talking about what I see: the AVERAGE Czechoslovakian wolfdog looks very different from a wolf to me. If I had to tell how much wolf I see in the average CWD using a percentage, it would not be nearly as high as a 30% (one third wolf!). But then, someone else may think they look MORE than 30% wolf. Again, I'm conveying a PERSONAL opinion, not stating a universal truth. Maybe I'm just sick of people owning Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and calling them "wolves"

loco · 09-06-2010, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fede86

Maybe I'm just sick of people owning Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and calling them "wolves"

At this point, you do not stand alone

.
Groette Martine.

Rona · 09-06-2010, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika

I lately discovered some human characteristics in mine

We've discovered this long time ago

Gypsy Wolf · 09-06-2010, 18:59

Statistically, I was looking at the number of GSDs and wolves that were used as foundation stock for our breed. 48 GSDs and 5 wolves. 5 is not 30% of 48.
Also, per one of the above posts, as the "best of the best" of the CSVs were selected to be bred, likely it was an overwhelming amount of GSD genetics that were selected for. Yes, they look very wolfy (though a lot of GSDs do too) phenotypically, most "wolf" behavioral characteristics were selected AGAINST - such as flight response, shyness, nervousness, independence, etc. Most of the desireable behavioral characteristics that were selected FOR were GSD traits - courage, biddability, social/pack drive, etc.
The wolf and dog genome are almost identical as dogs, obviously ARE wolves - albeit domesticated. Our advantage is that we know what wolf blood we used, and there may be some DNA characteristics (mitochondrial or other) specific to our Carpathian wolves. Certainy there are differences morphologically. So perhaps in the future we can recognize those markers and determine EXACTLY how much "wolf" is in any given CSV.
Until then I will just enjoy my DOG.

Oh, just because CSVs are often used to portray wolves, doesn't necessarily mean they look exactly like wolves... here in the U.S. I know of many film shots of "wolves" are played by sable GSDs, Malamutes and sometimes even Belgian shepherds! I am hoping that having a CSV available for film work will help change that, as my own dogs have been in multiple film projects - in other roles of course - they've played Police K9s or guard dogs and even "crippled" dogs in need of a doggie stroller...

Rona · 09-06-2010, 19:49

I found out that not many of the so-called 'ordinary people' (i.e. not dog lovers) see the wolfishness of our dogs. Most expect a dog on a leash and they see a dog. It's usually children, who say: 'Look, this dogs looks like a wolf".

In our city lives a man who owns (probably illegallly) a real Carpathian wolf, a truly beautiful animal called Burek. I met them once walking at the river. We started talking and the man told me I was the THIRD (sic!) person in five years who recognized Burek was a wolf.

I asked him if he was not afraid that I'd report him, but he laughed and said that in such a case he'd tell the City Guards or Police that Burek was a CSV without a pedigree and nobody would question that.

And now a question: a dog or a wolf?

Mikael · 09-06-2010, 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

And now a question: a dog or a wolf?

Hmmmm, I think it is nor a wolf or a dog...

I think it is a Wolfdog

Very best regards / Mikael

Fede86 · 10-06-2010, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

And now a question: a dog or a wolf?

I think I was talking about the "average" CWD. You don't have to show me pictures, I know many very "wolfy" Czachoslovakian wolfdogs

and many not strictly "wolfy" but equally beautiful. I noticed Blitz on the database a while ago, it's a shame she died

elf · 10-06-2010, 12:15

Next wolf blood

? Magnificent Bezinka

Gypsy Wolf · 11-06-2010, 20:05

Is Bezinka the more brownish one? A real wolf?

09-06-2010, 14:30	#6
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Fede, indeed you are talking about "Wolves genes" (not Wolfblood -which is just a math number-). You know wolves and dogs are very very close regarding DNA sharing, and sometimes only a very little change in the genome may lead to huge structural/functionnal changes, so it's not expectable to be mesured lineary (like a %). Those kind of researches are rather new and are possible with use of DNA chip + computer analisis, you can make a google search with these words to go deeper: "Genome wide SNP haplotype dog domestication". To complicate more, genes tend not to work alone but into what we call a 'genetic regulatory network' (GNR), this is also highly non linear processes. And in addition, you have other levels of regulation at "expression time" (ARN modulation by proteines is an exemple) => same genes -> different expressions. So, as you guess, no straight conclusion like this possible. __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

09-06-2010, 19:49	#11
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	I found out that not many of the so-called 'ordinary people' (i.e. not dog lovers) see the wolfishness of our dogs. Most expect a dog on a leash and they see a dog. It's usually children, who say: 'Look, this dogs looks like a wolf". In our city lives a man who owns (probably illegallly) a real Carpathian wolf, a truly beautiful animal called Burek. I met them once walking at the river. We started talking and the man told me I was the THIRD (sic!) person in five years who recognized Burek was a wolf. I asked him if he was not afraid that I'd report him, but he laughed and said that in such a case he'd tell the City Guards or Police that Burek was a CSV without a pedigree and nobody would question that. And now a question: a dog or a wolf? __________________ Last edited by Rona; 09-06-2010 at 20:09.

10-06-2010, 12:15	#14
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Next wolf blood ? Magnificent Bezinka __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 10-06-2010 at 12:18.

09-06-2010, 18:59	#10
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Statistically, I was looking at the number of GSDs and wolves that were used as foundation stock for our breed. 48 GSDs and 5 wolves. 5 is not 30% of 48. Also, per one of the above posts, as the "best of the best" of the CSVs were selected to be bred, likely it was an overwhelming amount of GSD genetics that were selected for. Yes, they look very wolfy (though a lot of GSDs do too) phenotypically, most "wolf" behavioral characteristics were selected AGAINST - such as flight response, shyness, nervousness, independence, etc. Most of the desireable behavioral characteristics that were selected FOR were GSD traits - courage, biddability, social/pack drive, etc. The wolf and dog genome are almost identical as dogs, obviously ARE wolves - albeit domesticated. Our advantage is that we know what wolf blood we used, and there may be some DNA characteristics (mitochondrial or other) specific to our Carpathian wolves. Certainy there are differences morphologically. So perhaps in the future we can recognize those markers and determine EXACTLY how much "wolf" is in any given CSV. Until then I will just enjoy my DOG. Oh, just because CSVs are often used to portray wolves, doesn't necessarily mean they look exactly like wolves... here in the U.S. I know of many film shots of "wolves" are played by sable GSDs, Malamutes and sometimes even Belgian shepherds! I am hoping that having a CSV available for film work will help change that, as my own dogs have been in multiple film projects - in other roles of course - they've played Police K9s or guard dogs and even "crippled" dogs in need of a doggie stroller...

11-06-2010, 20:05	#15
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Is Bezinka the more brownish one? A real wolf?