Calculation of Wolf blood?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

And now a question: a dog or a wolf?

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Rona

Good answer! It's a CSV

I did think the ears was to mush GSD, wolf normally has lower and more furry ears, I also did think the eyes was to dark, most wolf I did see had very light eyes.

But sometimes it´s very hard to tell...

Very best regards / Mikael

[Angelika]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Rona

It's a CSV

Ooooohh ... you couldn´t wait, Rona? I was still searching on Per Olav´s site because of the impressive "neck collar"

[buidelwolf]

Statistically, I was looking at the number of GSDs and wolves that were used as foundation stock for our breed. 48 GSDs and 5 wolves. 5 is not 30% of 48.

presupposed here is 5/48 = 10,42 %, which is indeed not 30%... . This may be again “the American way” but it’s a wrong assumption, at least regarding the way how the (mathematical) wolf blood percentage is calculated in our breed with for example the moreover fantastic statistic tool, Elf made available. This mathematical wolf blood percentage doesn’t say a lot, but that's already discussed in this and various other topics. It’s just math's not genetics, as we simply like figures....

Back to the evolution of this mathematical wolf blood percentages of our contemporary Csv’s you are refering to in the quote: Not 5 wolves are used, but 4, which mated 6 times. 4 of these matings with gsd’s and 2 matings (Sarik) with F3 and F4/5. The first generation of these 6 wolf matings were crossed with GSD’s and with other F1’s-F4’s and went on in the breed. So several of the F1’s-F4’s were also intercrossed, f.e. F1 XF4, F2 X F3 etc.

The total number of GSD’s used in the matings is 43 (maybe I could have overlooked one), not 48. Most of them mated with F1’s-F4’s. The reason you find more than 43 (or44?) GSD’s in our pedigree is that in some occasions also one (or two) of the parents of the used GSD’s are included in the database, for example Nancy von Steinstücken (__NO__) and Ohle vom Rundeck (__NO__) are included, but they weren’t used in the breed theirselves, their son Bojar vom Schotterhof (__NO__) was used. Or Tula Irka (__NO__) which is included in the pedigree database, but wasn’t used herself, her daughter Centa Irka (__NO__) was.
The 43 used GSD’s mated 50 times. 22 of these GSD matings didn’t go on in our breed. The 6 wolf matings did. See also this topic. So from this point of view nowadays our wolfdogs are in base descent of 28 GSD matings and 6 wolfmatings (26 individual GSD’s and 4 individual wolves), not to mention the intercrosses between the F1’s-F4’s of which specifically one was used excessively often: Rep z Pohranièní strá¾e (F3) . He had a (mathematical) wolf blood percentage of 42,19%, which again doesn’t say a lot. This all declares why nowadays our Csv’s have a mathematical wolf blood percentage of about 27% (with some outliers up and a number below) to which is often refered to.

@Rona: beautiful picture! I think it's a very nice looking wolfish Csv

[Gypsy Wolf]

Actually, it's funny how *I* see the species... to me, every dog is a developmentally stunted, physically mutated wolf...
Though most people here, in the U.S., really only recognize the term "Animal Behaviorist" I am actually an "Animal Ethologist" - the difference is that Behaviorists study behavior in a "repeatable, scientific" laboratory method. We Ethologists are a little "rogue" - we study animals in their natural environment and record their behavior. Because animals LEARN, very few negative episodes are repeatable, thus "anecdotal" rather than following the "scientific" model.
Of course, these "anecdotes" are an amazing peek into how animals think - Betty the Crow in England can fashion a hook out of a paper clip to get food items in a tube. Just like Chimps who select and strip a twig to stick in an anthill to get food... or my dogs who learn how to get out of locked crates and open the drawer that contains their treats...
That is actually one of the many reasons I love the CSV - I love watching how Luna perceives the world and how she learns. It's incredible to me.
BTW, did "Burek" the wolf behave especially "wolfy"? Shy? Nervous? Just curious...

[Gypsy Wolf]

I thought there was a 5th wolf brought in sometime in the 1970s?

[Angelika]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Lunas Mom

I thought there was a 5th wolf brought in sometime in the 1970s?

Have a look here:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8041

[Rona]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door buidelwolf

@Rona: beautiful picture! I think it's a very nice looking wolfish Csv

She wasn't my dog, but she had one of the most beautiful CSV heads, fantastic fur, and exceptionally sweet nature...

BTW, did "Burek" the wolf behave especially "wolfy"? Shy? Nervous? Just curious...

Well, I'd say ....rather indifferently. When I tried to touch him he didn't seem to like it: put his tail under his belly, and made a step back, but in his eyes I didn't see any panic or big nervousness. I suppose he was used to walking among people from early age.
The guy told me that Burek ruined the flat a few times, but apart from that was exceptionally rational and loving. They never had any serious arguments and he was even able to train him some commands which Burek obeyed when he was both motivated and in a good mood . I wished I asked him more questions...

In fact I had heard about this guy earlier from my son's friend, but I thought it was kind of a "city legend" and that it was just a pedigreeless CSV like our Tina was. But when I saw the animal I had no doubts it was a wolf... the movement, eye expression... It was like watching... the essence of CSVs. Well, we all saw wolves in zoos, but it was interesting to see a wolf walking on leash in the street just like an ordinary dog

I asked if I could take a picture, but the owner for obvious reasons refused.

[wolfin]

Blitz is great

other wolf

[Fede86]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Rona

And now a question: a dog or a wolf?

I think I was talking about the "average" CWD. You don't have to show me pictures, I know many very "wolfy" Czachoslovakian wolfdogs and many not strictly "wolfy" but equally beautiful. I noticed Blitz on the database a while ago, it's a shame she died

[Rona]

To me a CSV is a dog that has SOME characteristics of a wolf, maybe a bit more than average dog... especially when it comes to mischiefs. To me they do look much more wolfish than GSD, especially as their movement is concerned. (just a personal opinion)

But I agree that little machos (where little refers not to their size, but rather to their macho quality) with big 'wolves', are simply ...humorous.

I think I still prefer the 'big machos' with tiny dogs on long leash that one may meet in Croatian holiday resorts

[Vaiva]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Mikael

I did think the ears was to mush GSD, wolf normally has lower and more furry ears, I also did think the eyes was to dark, most wolf I did see had very light eyes.

I've seen a wolf with really dark eyes... If he had a bonitation card, it would be written "light brown"

[Rona]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Vaiva

I've seen a wolf with really dark eyes... If he had a bonitation card, it would be written "light brown"

In fact this particular photo lies. Blitz had very clear eyes.

[Grin]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Rona

In fact this particular photo lies. Blitz had very clear eyes.

That's what I wanted to say; the light on this photo is very poor.

[elf]

Next wolf blood ? Magnificent Bezinka

[Gypsy Wolf]

Is Bezinka the more brownish one? A real wolf?

[hanninadina]

Yes, she is a terrific carpatian wolvin with now 2 years. On the pic she must be a bit younger.

Christian

[Silvester]

Hey "elf" !

Very fine pictures to see and to explain the differences in looking of (one)pure wolf to ( two ) CsW..!!

Great photos, i love them !!

Do you have any more of this ?

Best greetings from Germany, Silvester

[elf]

Hi,

Here are some more here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...t=10934&page=2

Also these ones:





I guess there're more on this site. The ones in the snow really rocks, I did not find any better !



Cheers

Elf, thanks for the photos. I love seeing pictures of Carpathian wolves, since I've mainly had knowledge/experience with American Timber wolves. I like seeing the differences and the structure, since THIS is where the CsV comes from! I also think it's interesting that if you look at CsVs all the time, you think how amazingly wolfy they look, then you put them NEXT to a wolf and you realize, yes, they really are just DOGS!

Regarding "wolfblood", I think the calculation really can only be considered a fun pastime. There's really no such thing as "wolf genes" vs. "dog genes", it's all DNA! During reproduction, DNA combines, changes around, and mutates. There's really no looking at it saying, "This strand is wolf, while this other strand is dog," unless my understanding of genetics is WAY off. So, really, the way I see it, is CsVs are dogs with recent wolf ancestry when compared to other breeds. It'd be interesting to study the DNA, though, since GSDs are actually one of the breeds farthest away from wolves in DNA. I'm curious to know where CsVs would fit on that scale!

http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm
(Dogs closer to the top of the list are closest to wolves genetically.)

[hanninadina]

Vicky, what do you mean where the csw fits in the scale? Where shall a F 6 wolfdog fit? Right, near the wolf. The wolf genes are not "cooked" away.... Look at csv statistic, lots of the csw have at minimum two wolves in their lines, but a few have more or all 4 wolves.

Christian