Poisoning

[AMERICANI]

She Is better. She recovered rather quickly! I just want to find out if my results look like someone else's who has had an intentional poisoning. There are so many things including plants which are poisonous....It is hard to tell.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

She Is better. She recovered rather quickly! I just want to find out if my results look like someone else's who has had an intentional poisoning. There are so many things including plants which are poisonous....It is hard to tell. Thanks, Jason

Well, animals usually do not eat poisonous plants. My cockatiels (their brain is not too big and many many generations were born in captivity) used to eat my orchids, suculents, other plants, but never got even close to the possibly dangerous ones like euphorbia
Have any angry neighbours?... Sorry, maybe I am too suspicious but this sounds like doing it on purpose.

[AMERICANI]

When Ecaterina was a puppy, she was eating these little yellow flowers (in my yard) which stopped her blood from clotting, but the vet noticed it and we stopped it before it became a big problem. Two weeks later, my friend at the nearby motorcycle shop asked me how my dog was, because he saw a car hit her..... he caught her and put her back inside my yard because she was walking. I noticed her nose had some blood coming out. I thought she fell from my carport.

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

... she was eating these little yellow flowers (in my yard)

I think you mean these little yellow flowers

http://www.botanikus.de/Gift/schoellkraut.html

but I bet an adulte CsW doesn´t eat them.

Best wishes to Elsa.

[AMERICANI]

The vet actually said it was 'Ruta', a rather abundant plant here.... I am with you though, I don't think she escaped and ate a stomach full of "Ruta"...

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

The vet actually said it was 'Ruta', a rather abundant plant here.... I am with you though, I don't think she escaped and ate a stomach full of "Ruta"...

Rue? http://www.botanical.com/botanical/m...rue---20-l.jpg This one?
Really strange... How much could she eat? These plants are very common in Lithuania, grown near houses, even the places where children play, it is used as a herb - in old times - for making abortions , it also cures the nerve system And can make ones skin more sensitive to sun. It can not poison dogs.

[Angelika]

Surprise, surprise ... good knowledge for a "miescionka", Vaiva
but "skin more sensitive for sun" is an other herb

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

The vet actually said it was 'Ruta', a rather abundant plant here.... I am with you though, I don't think she escaped and ate a stomach full of "Ruta"...

Change your vet, Jason No dog would eat "Ruta". It smells strangely and tastes bitter.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Surprise, surprise ... good knowledge for a "miescionka", Vaiva
but "skin more sensitive for sun" is another herb

Learning Lithuanian?
Angelika, the juice of the leaves togeher with the sun makes real injurues. We tried it at the kindergarden more than twenty years ago

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

She Is better. She recovered rather quickly! I just want to find out if my results look like someone else's who has had an intentional poisoning. There are so many things including plants which are poisonous....It is hard to tell.

Hello AMERICANI,

first, I´m very sorry for your loss - hoping that your Elsa will recover really soon.

Concerning your question...please descibe the symptoms more closely, that may help to figure out whether it was a plant/herb or poisening by intention.

Nevertheless, you live in Italia, that´s right? I´ve learnd that in some parts of Italy it is not that uncommon that people lay out/throw poisened meat balls or stomaches of smaller vertebra filled with a mixture of strychnine and locally used pestizites. The Problem is that many Vets cannot help an animal who ate one of these as it is difficult to figure out what exactly has been mixed into them.
Strychnine itself is quite common poison used even by "hunters" in at least one part of Italia. Many dogs die that way....which is horrible!
Which Region do you live in?

regards,
koboldine

[AMERICANI]

I live in the Campania Region.... between Caserta and Napoli.. As for describing symptoms, I came home and found her laying down. I picked her upand she stumbled and wobbled to a shady place... Late is when I saw melena and immediately stormed off to the vet's office. There she had a fever (41) but they shaved her stomach and tail and put ice packs on her.

[koboldine]

Hei,

I think you could check several possibilities:

- can anyone throw / put some kind of "treaty" (filled with whatever a sick person has on hands which means Do you or your dog have "enemies"), than it will be impossible to trace the poison in her blood now

- has it been one of the first really hot days? If so it might as well have been a sunstroke

- if you walk her out in the morning may she have eaten something unseen/ unrecognised - like a bait?

- has she eaten gras or herbs that morning - perhaps next to a field (my experience is that in the more rural parts peasants do not care what kind of pesticide/rodenticide they use as long as it helps) - which might have been contaminated?

- have you/your family lately started to protect yourselves against gnats, biting houseflies, zecce...? There are repellenti con Dietiltoluamide which human beings use... a dog licking this might take in too much of this poisening substance.

Three years ago it has been some kind of fashion sports in a regione next to your place - right up the Majella and next to the national park - to display poisened baits next to dog owners places...

Hoping that you will find out that your dog has not been poisened intentionally and perhaps you will find some evidence that she knows what went wrong - and now will avoid it....Our dogs are quite special concerning this ability.

ti auguro una bella serata
have a nice evening
koboldine

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

It also can be a simple infection with Clostridium or E.coli or the new parvo types on a young dog with unsufficient working vaccination.
The stumbeling and wobbling can be caused from high fever.

[koboldine]

Sorry, I don´t think that - even an italian vet (yes...I know there are such and such) - would miss to check on Clostridium/E.coli....and she isn´t that young anymore, born in 2007...
Stumbling - sure due to heat (inside or outside) is a possibility, that´s why I´ve asked for the wheather

To me it sounds more ...obvious... that there are "dear neighbours" - it wouldn´t be too bad to keep the dogs inside while you are away, just for some time, and check the garden when you come home.

Take care,
koboldine

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

To check for Chlostridium and pathogenous E.coli you normally have to send a sample to a lab or do the incubation yourself. Even a non-Italian vet (strange point of view by the way) would need some time for that. Apart from time is another problem that facaessamples often don´t show the same bacterial population like the small intestins.
Only very, very few poisons cause high temperature and it is not very likely that a wolfdog will stay in the sun when having the choice till it gets such severe problems. Strychnin for example causes extreme convulsions as a main symptom. Cumarinderivates that are nowadays used in rat-poison cause melena but not higher temperature...
Americani don´t you have toxicological emergency centers in Italy? In Germany you can call them, tell them the symptoms and they will tell you what poisons are a possible cause.

Ina

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

To check for Chlostridium and pathogenous E.coli you normally have to send a sample to a lab or do the incubation yourself.

As AMARICANI has written: this happened *recently* and she *recovered* fast. Which means this process has already come to an end...so that is why I´ve pointed out that the vet - most certainly - has had enough time to examine the facae.
I´d like to stick to an old proverb: KISS - so I did not bother to explain the procedure in detail. Thanks for doing so.

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Even a non-Italian vet (strange point of view by the way) would need some time for that.

Yes, but why do you use this expression?

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Apart from time is another problem that facaessamples often don´t show the same bacterial population like the small intestins.

You are so right. Thanks for clarifying this problem.
That´s why I stated "possibilities" not facts, didn´t I?

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Only very, very few poisons cause high temperature and it is not very likely that a wolfdog will stay in the sun when having the choice till it gets such severe problems.

So in your opinion it is unusual in certain parts of this world to mix several - sometimes according to EC norms "ancient" poisons - in order to harm animals?
Concerning the likelyness of any dog to seek for a shadowy place in that state they would most certainly do. But as I don´t know the garden of AMERICANI I assumed that there might have been none. I should not assume, you´re right.

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Strychnin for example causes extreme convulsions as a main symptom. Cumarinderivates that are nowadays used in rat-poison cause melena but not higher temperature...

And again... mixing poisoning substances - even ones in DE would not be used anymore - seems to me something to look at.
Furthermore, stychnine does not neccessarily cause convulsions - in many cases it does, in some they are temporarily or do not occure at all - or might have been gone, when the dog has been found....

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Americani don´t you have toxicological emergency centers in Italy? In Germany you can call them, tell them the symptoms and they will tell you what poisons are a possible cause.

Well, the German Giftzentrale (toxicological emergency) is really really usefull! They do a really great job.
For humans there is the Centro Antiveleni, they deal mainly with substance which are known - e.g. one has eaten some fungi, you keep the rest and provide them with information, than they can help.

The way I´ve learnt it in Italy is that you ask the Corpo Forestale/Vet to send in a sample of the substance for analysis. Then - in at least two regions this takes about two weeks, more or less - they provide you with a report. And again - if you don´t have any substance....you see?

IF there is something else, AMERICANI, please name it and - if possible - also provide a phone number... I will at once file it in my cell.

Have a nice evening,
we will take a walk now :-)
koboldine