Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

hanninadina · 14/06/2010, 18h54

When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was.

From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point.

Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 14/06/2010, 19h07

Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics.
Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great.
Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes.
I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs.
But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me.
And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed...

14/06/2010, 18h54	#1
hanninadina Senior Member Date d'inscription: November 2003 Messages: 2 466	When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was. From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point. Christian

14/06/2010, 19h07	#2
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Date d'inscription: February 2010 Localisation: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Messages: 252	Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics. Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great. Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes. I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs. But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me. And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed...