What is an interesting pedigree?

[Hanka]

I will be happy if I will see SOME groups in other countries too. But I see nothing...And: who will make it?
It is easy to critise to work of breeders in some country. But in other countries I don´t see some similar work....
Why don´t exist groups in Poland? I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise....
And: in every country are good and bad dogs. It is nature. it is our work, to do our breed better.

[wolfin]

Hanka please explaine my question
thanks

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I will be happy if I will see SOME groups in other countries too. But I see nothing...And: who will make it?

Calm down. I just want to discuss... Really - cool without any subtextes.

Why some of the groups exist? Why you choosed these dogs and not other? Why they are so important? What was the reason to divide the stud dogs this way? Why you choosed this and not other? Why you want to fight for group which do not have ANY advantages? It is what we all want to ask here.

In the Pandora case:
Leave Poland - let's take Germany. They do not have breeding dogs with this "pandora" blood at the moment. How do you want to convince breeders there to use this blood when 6 puppies of 7-8 born in every litter will have visible problems to move on the proper way? And about 50% will be dysplatic. What can explain such extremly risky breeding?
I just want to know why it is so important to keep this "damned" line? What there is so important to sacrifice so many puppies? I just want to understand it.

Now one example to make clear what i mean. Let's take you have in CZ 10 lines. 8 are nice and healthy (at least "normal"). Two are horrible - with huge health problems. Dogs from the 8 groups spread in the country without any problems - because breeders use these dogs because they are nice, have good character. Many of these dog get breeding rights because they have nice hips and are doing well on dog shows.
By the two "horrible" lines the number of dogs is decreasing - because nobody want to breed with these dogs, because the puppies are much worser than average. Because of the bad hips only few of them get breeding rights. Nobody who is interested in breeding is buying such dogs so there are less and less dogs in these groups.
If the club want to preserve this 2 grooup the breeding comission must "block" dogs from the 8 good "healthy" lines and force the breeders to use dogs from these 2 "ill" lines. Right?
My question is: WHY? Why to preserve ill lines? For the breed it would be advantage if they will dissappear. Maybe in this place you can make another "new" but HEATHLY group....?

I really understand that the club want to keep uncommon lines and I REALLY respect your work in CZ. I know that there are many "lemmings" - breeders which cover their females with every "winner" - it is enough that a dog win some shows and many lemmings want to cover with him their bitches EVEN if the dogs has untypical body, even if it has untypical character, comes from a very common line with many health problems and is absolutly not fitting to the female... I know that lemmings makes in the most cases the majority of the breeders.
And in Czech Republic and Slovakia the club is a nice tool to control the lemmings...

I fully agree with keeping uncommon lines. Blood of several dogs "survived" only because I covered with these stud dogs and make some advertising. Some of them changed from "unknown" even to "common"... I do not care of a dog is World Winner or Club Winner. Titles are unimportant. BUT the dog must be Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (and not Czechoslovakian Shepherd) and must be healthy. I know that some lines had "bad time" and one generation was sometimes not so great but other are already OK. I have nothing against such lines. But what is the goal to keep lines where there are several generations of dogs with serious health problems? And the number of ill dogs do not seem to decrease...

Originally Posted by Hanka

It is easy to critise to work of breeders in some country.

Hanka, do you really see no problems with the list you published? With the honesty of the rules?

Sorry, but I don't think that ANY breeder from Poland will be interested in your offer to "help". Do you wonder why? Let's take your list:
http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Situation-in-c...eding-now.html
CZECH REPRODUCTORS
On this list you have ONE dog from Poland. One of 24 stud dogs available. Dog which is not even owned by Czech Club member. It is not the best one. It is not the most interesting or unique one. It is not the healthiest one. It is not the one with the best character. What is the reason why exactly THIS (and only this) dog it is the only Polish dog on this list?

Polish kennels are banned? OK, let it be. But WHY there is no Kirk Kroy Eden severu (the ONLY son of Dragon Eden severu who has not offsprings so far) and Max z Litavské kotliny. Both are CZECH dogs, from CZECH kennels. With BONITATIONS and HD-RESULTS.

And such "mysery" thing happend already for years... It is really not the first case where you do not even allow Czech breeders to use really good dogs from abroad...

There is really a difference between COOPERATION and EXPLOITING. And what you offer is not cooperation...

Originally Posted by Hanka

But in other countries I don´t see some similar work....

It is not about do the same work. It really make no sence that for example German breeders will destroy their lines and start to breed according the Czech lines. Especialy that you can see that Czech lines are made for CZECH Republic. Read your own words: http://wolfdog.wbs.cz/Situation-in-c...ding-now.html:
"Without offsprings in Czech Rep."

You care only which dogs have offsprings in CZ. And even if breeders in other countries will help you - you will not take into consideration their work. According to the way of thinking they should make the same lines in every country and follow the same rules. But basing on the population genetic it makes really no sence to make twice the same lines. Most of the Czech lines are doing well - you really do not need more dogs of this blood.
And the "unique" groups
- some of them have only few represents in Czech Republic but for example many in Slovakia so it makes no sence to make third time the same group.
- some "unique" groups are dying out because of the health problems. In such case I think it is not ethical to ask other breeders to save exactly such lines.

And: who will make it?

Your are from the origin country. You should ask them to cooperate... There are always many breeders from abroad who do great job and are willing to cooperate. But... the reality was cruel so far. One example: there was a person from one of the breed clubs from abroad interested in making the lines also in her own country. She asked for materials, for instructions, for information. The answer was: it is only for CZECH CLUB MEMBERS. Hidden and protected like treasure. The lines were top secret and protected.

Of course it is changing now and it is great that Czech Club published the Czech lines online. Really good work even if the dogs arew filtered. But believe me - there was no chance for anybody from abroad to get any instructions "what to do" before. Even if they asked.

Personally I was lucky in Slovakia. I get clear answer: We have our own groups. You should try to make your own in your own countries. (Special thanks to Oskar Dora).
Sure there is one problem - the clubs in Slovakia and Czech Republic are special. You can FORCE your club members to follow the guidelines. We can not. Breeders can use dogs which they want to use. We can not make any lines officialy. We can not even forbid breeders (even if there would be a breed club in Poland) to import and use this "dysplasia" blood. They can do what they want.

BUT what we can do is to make group of breeders folowing the same goals voluntarily. And THIS is already working since some years. It is not so easy visible as it is not a club but there are breeders from several countries trying to build some lines.
But still - geting the needed information about the old lines and old dogs is ploughing fallow land.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Why don´t exist groups in Poland? I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise...

No Hanka. You will not use them... As it was also not allowed for several Czech breeders to use the best dogs we have here in Poland... I have no problem with it - we cleared it with Dana a long time before...

It is simply: we have (had) in Poland some dogs which blood you can find only here BUT all good dogs which we have will be used for breeding here. They will be 'common'...
According to the plan you will only use what we don't want to use by us. Dogs with health problems, with HD-problems, with problematic lines. Because only these dog will be UNIQUE. Because only such dogs will be not used by our breeders and their blood will stay "precious". It is why the good Polish dogs do not have any puppies in CZ, but the dogs which Polish breeders don't want to use because of health/dysplasia/exterier problems have already several offsprings in your country.

Of course I must be fair and to say it is working also other way - lines which you block not to spread among your country because of health problems are, as I wrote before, advertised by some of Polish breeders as their new "discovery" of "unique and precious" Czech blood...

But it is the tricky thing with "unique" lines and unique blood.

Please - don't be angry now but it is so. It is always working like this - if you have GOOD dogs, with interesitng line, giving good and healthy puppies many breeders start to use the stud dogs and because they are also healthy many of the puppies get breeding rights later. And the line start to be common. "Unique" will stay only lines where there are serious problems and the breeders avoid to use these dogs....

[Hanka]

Oh Margo, it is too long article for me. You know, groups was created many years ago, by Karel Hartl (?). I hope. So some question you must ask him. Not me )). We only continue in his work. Ask him why some groups exist, what was target of these groups, ...I think, he can explain you much , much.....
About THIS poland male on czech list: ask our leader of breeding Dana Matušincová. She explain you WHY is he on our list. I know- owner is not your friend, but it is not my problem.
Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.
You come here and in first your thread you attack czech breeding. Sometimes I don´t understand why you do it. Belive me, "Pandora" is in every country. I know it. But: will we attack males from other countries? No...Why? Because we are not stupid.....It is not fair.
I will not continue in this confrontation tone, because I need not it, I don´t like it. I don´t like to read long articles and I don´t like to write looong article.
I write here because I want help to breeders, to breed.
And maybe is better when I forget this writting about czechoslovakian shepperd............

For other people: I spoke with leader of czech breeding Dana Matušincová. She agrees, she can help to give males from other countries to groups (like we have). But she does not speak english. So if somebody will want, can write me and I translate it for Dana.
I spoke with leader of czech club Karel Skoupy (kennel z Udoli ticha). He can help with groups too. He speaks english better than me ))
So if somebody wants folow czech groups, he can contact czech club.
But of course, every country can make own groups (if there is more males) and it can go to own way.......
All breeders on the World have only one target. To keep large genopool of our breed. And everybody can do a little for it when breeders will choose males not only for show titles.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.

So could you also answer what was really in the question? Would you choose a stud from a very rare line, but having some possible health, character, exterior problems? Or better not so "unique" but surely healthy, good-tempered, nice looking?

[Hanka]

Daiva- sorry about late. This list is actual to February I think, there are not more males, which passed last two bonitations. When club will update it, I will have fresh list on my webpage too.
But now nobody worked on it, because people worked on documents for conferention. So we have a little late.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Daiva- sorry about late. This list is actual to February I think, there are not more males, which passed last two bonitations. When club will update it, I will have fresh list on my webpage too.
But now nobody worked on it, because people worked on documents for conferention. So we have a little late.

thanks,
Hanka but when this others male from this example litter make all who mas have he be in this list?
or not better make only in this style - written only "B Sotis " and people can used dog who they like from litter B Sotis, not only this 2 male ( sory but bonitation have 3 male and one for him have better HD like one dog from this list )
ok ok I not atack this plan, only when I this make I change this Brian, Basco Sotis in "B Sotis"

this is my like genetic and breeder idea

[Hanka]

Hanka but when this others male from this example litter make all who mas have he be in this list? ---Daiva, I don´t understand....(these dogs are breeding dogs, the list is not important. But I don´t know if you ask it...)

Breeding comission write to breeder: "ideal is to use male XY, because..." But it is not dogma, Daiva. Every breeder can speak about (for him) better dog, brother.... The result can be compromis. But important is to comunicate with leader of breeding. Usually leader of breeding tell to breeder, what she waits from this litter, why comission choosed THIS male, what risiks can be there (illneses, dysplasy and everything what we know about parents.....) or what positiv we wait.......
But it is theory and nature is nature. Pups can be surprise for us )

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hanka but when this others male from this example litter make all who mas have he be in this list? ---Daiva, I don´t understand....(these dogs are breeding dogs, the list is not important. But I don´t know if you ask it...)

ok - You have 3 dogs from B Sotis who have all who mas have for breeding, BUT in list are only 2 dogs. Why? why not can written B Sotis and end, but written dogs name.
Mybe for my dog who not are in list are better like dogs who you can see in this list

only this.

[wolfin]

oh, Hanka i forgot.

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

[Hanka]

About Tristan:
VII group because: his grand grand father (good word?) is Ajax Břevnovská stopa.
Usually are dogs in groups or lines from father. Father is there from his father,...etc. This grand grand...is in pedigree of male very often (or most often). But it is not only one view. This first reproductor must have perfect quality in something, he must be typicle in something. About Ajax and Alan Břevnovská stopa: here we look at thier quality, they was in breeding more than other related males.(Don´t forget, it was x years ago and in this time we had not much dogs for choosing. The breeders was happy when was in breeding 20 males!!!)..This group is a little different from other population. But it is not closed process. We can (maybe we must?) rebuild this group. Maybe to find some males from this line, which are in other countries, they are health, good, which can have quality pups,... And which are not in czech breeding in past.... (offsprings of exported pups-dogs)
I am very sorry, my english is not good and I can´t explain on 100% what I mean.
If you will want more info abou it, you must ask leader of our club )))

[Hanka]

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

Here nobody send infos about new reproductors to breeding comission. We have list of new males, we make bonitations. So we need not some list somewhere on internet. It is not important. But comission find female for every(!!!) breeding male in Czech. We want use every male in every year. Of course, 99% males mate only 1 female/year. I think it is good, we need large genopool. but not in all cases it is possible: some male does not want female, female does not want male, etc....
Do you ask me why are not males from your country on czech breeding plan? Hi hi, don´t ask me and write this question to Dana. Offer her some "interest" male and wait....I think, she answers to everybody.Here you ask on bad place.....

[Hanka]

Daiva, only short info about mateing here in Czech from 2008 and 2009:
In these years was in breeding 50 reproductors. 35 reproductors mated 1x, 12 reproductors 2x and 3 reproductors 3x.
Here will (I hope) never situation, when champions will be fathers for example of 80% pups!!!!!
Leader of breeding try to choose female for every one male. and female for male, of course.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

If all good member, all reproductors owner send info about theys dogs for You for new breeding plan, I know are send dogs and from Lithuania too. Why this dogs we not see in this plan? or this dogs are in new plan?

Here nobody send infos about new reproductors to breeding comission. We have list of new males, we make bonitations. So we need not some list somewhere on internet. It is not important. But comission find female for every(!!!) breeding male in Czech. We want use every male in every year. Of course, 99% males mate only 1 female/year. I think it is good, we need large genopool. but not in all cases it is possible: some male does not want female, female does not want male, etc....
Do you ask me why are not males from your country on czech breeding plan? Hi hi, don´t ask me and write this question to Dana. Offer her some "interest" male and wait....I think, she answers to everybody.Here you ask on bad place.....

ok and now we see- who is who nice... I think in next time people not runn and make who CZ club want and not send info, when they have this antswer.
But i believe CZ club maybe make better breeding plan and moore interesing like this who now we see

[Morian]

hanka, may i ask a question too?
this breeding plan, groups etc - it's not more than just a recommendation for breeders (if i understood, nobody can ban "out of plan" mate). then isn't it more useful for the breed to create "antiplan" including list of lines, stud dogs etc which bear defects and health problems?
my english is not perfect too, but i hope you'll understand what i want to say.

[Hanka]

Daiva, Morian. This list is not breeding plane ). It is only list of males in groups. I wrote you, every breeder can speak about breeding plane.
Breeding plane is created every year fresh, for all males and females. Every breeder who ask leader of breeding can ask about it. Breeding plane is "idea" about target. And every year is created new plan of next parents ( pairs). And every breeder can speak about it, when he does not agree with something (for example male for female). In 100% of cases is some result, what is good for breeder and leader of breeding too. Every year are a few discussion with breeders about some second male. It is normal.
Morian- do you mean list of males, which can have some genetic problems? hi hi, make some and I think owners of males on list will kill you . Nobody will want to see own dog on this list. but- good idea.

[Morian]

hanka, will the kill me or not, but it must exist
you know that there are many different rules in many different countries. some countries even have no club = no special requirements for stud dogs. some breeders use it consciously, some breeders just don't know about it (for example - at us, in russia). it's another question why did they decide to breed...
so my next question is: are the people afraid to be killed or such list is just uncomfortable for the same breeders? it's very interesting because we all (except blind ones) can see what happens in some cases. i still mean stable defects and health problems
it doesn't matter - do i want to see my dog in this list etc. because unbiased assessment must exist too.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Hanka

About THIS poland male on czech list: ask our leader of breeding Dana Matušincová. She explain you WHY is he on our list. I know- owner is not your friend, but it is not my problem.

Hanka, we don't need to ask Dana because we know exactly the answer... Simply said it is not as you wrote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

I will be happy if I will see there some good male from some good and health group. I will use him I promise....

You are NOT looking for GOOD and HEALTHY dogs from HEALTHY groups. There are many dogs like it in Poland. Some even without any offsprings.
No, you decided to put on the list only a "strange" dog comming from a line with much higher percentage of dysplasia than by other stud dogs here because this line is "unique" for you and it it is so because his group was decimated by bad hip results and body deformations and only few dogs from this line were able to get breeding rights.

So you put a dogs much worser than other stud dogs here EXACTLY because it is not from the HEALTHY line. If I as a breeder would like that you as Club will 'send me' female owners I should NOT breed healthy and good looking dogs but the most dyspaltic and degenerated... With the worsest exterier...

And it is so. And it is no wonder. There are many good, nice and healthy lines in Czech Republic. Healthy and nice means that many dogs are getting the breeding rights what make such good lines pretty common also by you. So you will not go abroad to use unique dog but comming from a bigger group. No, you will send only people to use the dogs from "dying" lines even if they are not typical and not from healthy line.

So it make no sence for any GOOD breeders to help you (I really DO NOT mean it on negative way!) because they can help you ONLY of their will start to use the worstest lines with the highest number of ilnesses and exterier faults. It means these which representants you need in CZ.
You really not not need more dogs comming from HEALTHY, GOOD lines because you have them already by you and some are still without any offsprings....

Originally Posted by Hanka

Margo, I started this my writting, because somebody here asked "what is interest" pedigree. I answered and I wrote about our system, about (for me) interest dogs.

There is a problem which was already mentioned by Koboldine.
Hanka, I think you mixed UNIQUE pedigree with INTERESTING pedigree... For the Czech 'small' breeding groups you need UNIQUE dogs and not necessarily INTERESTING.

Unique is a dog with seldom pedigree - comming usually from the "small" group. Sure there are still VERY FEW dogs which have unique but also GOOD and INTERESTING pedigree. But in the most cases "unique" are lines these which nobody want to use. Such dogs have UNINTERESTING pedigrees: with many ancestors with hip dysplasia, with bad exterier and bad characters. They are unique because nobody want to breed with such dogs.

And INTERESTING pedigree? First - CzW should look like Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. So I think it is hard to call a line of German Shepherd alike dogs a INTERESTING LINE of CZECHOSLOVIAKIAN WOLFDOG... Second - I don't think that pedigrees full of dogs with bad hips results can be considered as interesting, right....
So when we remove all lines of GSD looking dogs and dogs with bad health results we will have a group of dogs to choose from.

What is interesting? Depends what you are looking for.... If you are looking for a dog with INTERESTING working abilities. Or with INTERESTING ancestors. Or with high quality exterier.
Interesting will be a dog which will FULLY fulfil our requirements and and the same time will have the most "unique" pedigree from the all dogs we left for "last" selection.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Oh Margo, it is too long article for me. You know, groups was created many years ago, by Karel Hartl (?). I hope. So some question you must ask him. Not me )). We only continue in his work.

Hanka - it is alredy good answer. So the groups base on historical reasons.

Now the another question to the clubs

- You know the slovak lines are different. Do you consider the possibility to meet with the Slovak club and to prepare 'common' lines (I do not say that you have to follow all of them - just to write dow all possible lines which should be followed)? It can be made on a very easy way - if you would redefine the criterions for the groups as elf suggested and divide the dogs in lines of more recent dogs comming from CZ and SK. Such groups can be followed not only in CZ and SK but also in other countries (as the most dogs abroad were imported after 1995).
In such case every country can care for its "own" lines but at the same moment to follow the guidelines valid for the whole population.

So if there is the possiblity that both origin clubs will define for example 20 groups - Czech club will follow for example 8 of them, Slovaks 5, France and Italy also 5, Germany 3. Some lines will agree with each other. Some will be "specific" for a country.
Thanks to this we would not have the situation when in Czech Republic has 8 groups, Slovaks less and the rest of Wolfdogs are bred according no rules - pure chaos. But we would get 20 different lines. We can reach something what Slovak and Czech Club is not able to reach working alone and only for "themselves"...

[elf]

Originally Posted by Margo

Now the another question to the clubs

- You know the slovak lines are different. Do you consider the possibility to meet with the Slovak club and to prepare 'common' lines (I do not say that you have to follow all of them - just to write dow all possible lines which should be followed)? It can be made on a very easy way - if you would redefine the criterions for the groups as elf suggested and divide the dogs in lines of more recent dogs comming from CZ and SK. Such groups can be followed not only in CZ and SK but also in other countries (as the most dogs abroad were imported after 1995).
In such case every country can care for its "own" lines but at the same moment to follow the guidelines valid for the whole population.

So if there is the possiblity that both origin clubs will define for example 20 groups - Czech club will follow for example 8 of them, Slovaks 5, France and Italy also 5, Germany 3. Some lines will agree with each other. Some will be "specific" for a country.
Thanks to this we would not have the situation when in Czech Republic has 8 groups, Slovaks less and the rest of Wolfdogs are bred according no rules - pure chaos. But we would get 20 different lines. We can reach something what Slovak and Czech Club is not able to reach working alone and only for "themselves"...

I made some researches checking ancestors in all CSV pedigrees, I found again about how the "old groups" were built, it's the same method used but ancestors troncated at birth around 1980. I did the same with ancestors birth from severals dates (each year from 1980->2000), I put the files for you to check here: CSV Lines

I think we can start with 1990 file, and check if fulfill the needs, then makes some adjustments if needed.

I put 'weight' parameter in first column to let you see the relative importance between eachother dogs. From this list we can hopefully build new groups valid for every country.

[Hanka]

Hi Elf, if you will have some questions to me or about czech groups, write me email. I answer you. And what I will not know, I ask here "right persons"