Tamaskan Dogs..

Gypsy Wolf · 01-07-2010, 23:20

Interesting to me that the Tamaskan dog thing is causing a flurry... ALL DOGS are wolves, technically, and aren't WE the ones saying that CsVs are DOGS not wolves?
Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.
So, if they used CsVs after F5, they are using DOGS, right? The only lie, technically, is saying there is no "wolf" in them - as all dogs are wolves... not because of their use of CsV genes...
Personally I would think CsV genes would IMPROVE the breed, but I am biased.
As an aside, really the Sibe and Malamute folks should be annoyed - they were really the first breeds to look wolfy...

02-07-2010, 04:27

I think the issue (the way I see it) is less of "wolf blood" (although that's what you hear) and more about temperament. The foundation of these dogs, from what I understand, are dogs with very watered-down drive, so the goal is a nice, even tempered, family dog that's easy to train and manage. Since the CsV is so "close" to wolves, and since they're bred with work/sport more in mind, they have a much higher drive and a rougher personality to deal with. In short, the Tamaskans should be "easy" dogs to own where CsVs take a lot of work and dedication. Learning about both breeds, this is the reason I've settled on the CsV as being the dog in my future. I personally feel dogs should be bred, and especially new breeds should only be created, for a real working function, or preservation of a past function. The Tamaskans (from my point of view) are the equivalent of watering down a breed for show, only these people are doing so deliberately to make a good house pet instead of it just being a byproduct of the show ring. (Honestly, don't see the point, there are plenty of perfectly good pet dogs around, no need to make more! But I digress...)

In addition to that, it's the flat out lying about it that should get people riled up!

It doesn't help in the slightest to establish a "breed" based on falsified pedigrees!

Oh, & editing to add that as a Sibe person the breed does bother me a bit, but only because they're using Sibes to breed dogs without working function, not because of looking "wolfy"!

Tamaskans are using the "wolfy" appearance as a marketing gimmick, really. Sibes & Mals are functional working dogs that happen to look "wolfy".

Big difference! And honestly, if the breed were to become popular, I'd breath a little sigh of relief, because a Tamaskan would make a MUCH better housepet than a Sibe, and all too often people wanting a "wolfy" dog will run out to the first BYB Sibe breeder they can find. It's sad seeing so many dogs wind up in shelters or worse because people picking dogs just for "wolfy" appearance don't know what they're getting in to, and get in way over their heads.

Tuuli Salmi · 02-07-2010, 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.

CsV is one case, pure wolf another. Both have been used to created Tamaskans. It is not the CsV/wolf percentege I am doing this for, it is the fact that people havent been told about these infusions. I.e. they have been misled to believe that the breed has been created from GSD, malamute and siberian, which is just not TRUE. I think everyone is entitled to receive the truth and nothing can nor will justify NOT telling people the truth.

I am a sibe person myself and like Vicky cannot understand people who get sibes and dont work them. They are a working breed. There are enough pet breeds already. IMHO every siberian that is bred should have some sort of indication of its working ability.

tupacs2legs · 02-07-2010, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Interesting to me that the Tamaskan dog thing is causing a flurry... ALL DOGS are wolves, technically, and aren't WE the ones saying that CsVs are DOGS not wolves?
Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study.
So, if they used CsVs after F5, they are using DOGS, right? The only lie, technically, is saying there is no "wolf" in them - as all dogs are wolves... not because of their use of CsV genes...
Personally I would think CsV genes would IMPROVE the breed, but I am biased.
As an aside, really the Sibe and Malamute folks should be annoyed - they were really the first breeds to look wolfy...

im saddened by that comment

im a sibe person too...yes im annoyed

and no...sibes are meant to be foxy not wolfy

funny.. in england we have all three of these crosses... all supposedly containing the same 3 breeds all looking completely different...2 of them having csv added then suddenly breed to type!!

i dont want sibes or csv's used in this way

Gypsy Wolf · 02-07-2010, 18:42

No one wants to see their working dogs "watered down" - we have the same issue in Belgian Malinois (I have 2) and German Shepherds (I have 1), AND in Malinois we have the same issue of falsified pedigrees. No offense to any Dutch folks, but in the Malinois world it is common knowledge that the Dutch Malinois are mixes and one can never trust what is written on a pedigree - and even one famous French-bred dog, who appears in 95% of all Malinois pedigrees today NEVER ACTUALLY SIRED A LITTER.
That said, I heartily DISAGREE that all dogs should be bred for a working purposes. Honestly, nowadays, most dogs ARE PETS. There are no more 300 sheep flocks to watch over, we don't need to subsist on wild-caught game, or have dogs retrieve ropes to anchor ships.
Why are most dogs in shelters? Because of behavioral problems - many of which stem from the fact that the dog was too drivey and not able to be managed properly to channel that drive. The family wanted a PET. That is the new work of dogs. As we get further and further from our agrarian roots, dogs do too. Breeding for working drive, and not having a "market" for such is a serious issue. It's one reason I have never bred my Malinois. Not enough good homes for their "drive" requirements.
On the flip side, I am not worried about placing my German Shepherd's pups. Though they are drivey enough to do Schutzhund and Herding, among other working venues, they are also calm enough to place appropriately into "pet" homes. And 90% of such litters go to pet homes.
So why is it wrong for someone to want a gorgeous pet? Sheesh, if there wasn't a market, there would BE no Tamaskan dogs. So for you serious Sibe folks, be HAPPY someone is providing a "wolf-like" dog with a soft temperament for pet homes. Then they are not watering down your Sibes.
Tell me, how often do you have to harness up your dogs and bring supplies out to far-flung Arctic encampments? Even Sibes don't have a "job" anymore! And the folks who DO long-distance sledding often mix Sibes with hounds and other breeds as pure Sibes apparently do not work as well as mixes. But those mutts are actually WORKING, so was it wrong to for the true working-sledding folks to create a better sledding mix rather than using pure-bred Sibes?
Just food for thought. Certainly I do not want to see CsVs watered down, but I certainly cannot fault someone for wanting a beautiful pet. I also do not fault those same people for not going to the pound and "rescuing" someone else's garbage. I worked at a local SPCA for almost 10 years, and the dogs dumped there where discarded for a reason. Who wants to inherit a dog who bites, poos all over itself or other (insert bad habit)? Not only that, but aesthetics play a part. If I like a "wolfy" looking dog, why would I adopt a pitbull mix? Just because it is politically correct to adopt from a shelter? Think about it. Honestly. Ask yourself these same questions. Part of the reason we are attracted to a particular breed is also because we know there will be certain behavioral traits in that breed that we like. With a shelter dog, you have absolutely no clue what your are getting.
I am not advocating AGAINST shelter dogs - I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, because people tend to get on their high horse and criticize others, when in fact, when it comes right down to it, they would do the same thing...

02-07-2010, 21:41

My Siberian is "someone else's garbage" that came to us crate trained, housebroken, with basic obedience and house manners. Sure, he had some rough edges to work out, but all in all, he came as a fantastic dog.

I think people looking to trash shelter dogs so quickly haven't really taken the time to look for a dog. You don't go rushing out to the first breeder you see, do you? Then why would you do the same when it comes to shelters/rescues? You're much more likely to find a suitable dog for a pet home via a reputable shelter that tests their dogs rather than having the same family get a puppy that may or may not fit their situation. Just because there's a "market" for dogs does not mean they should be bred. I'm sorry if I sound elitist, but it's just how I feel, dogs should either have a current job (like Alaskan Huskies, the mutts used in sprinting) or should be bred to preserve a breed. You're right, huskies and mals aren't used so much, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't still be bred to standard and preserved. It's "breed preservation" not "breed to fill puppy demand," that's what mills do.

Quote:

I am not advocating AGAINST shelter dogs - I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, because people tend to get on their high horse and criticize others, when in fact, when it comes right down to it, they would do the same thing...

What do you mean by that, do the same thing? It's not a matter of switching breeds entirely based on temperament, it's about adopting the dog that, although it's a breed that NORMALLY would be drivey, the dog has a temperament that doesn't fit with the normal standard. You can get this somewhat (like you even said) with pet-quality dogs from a good breeder, but you can get an even better match with a rescue pet that has been tested and found to fit in your particular situation. It's about doing the legwork to actually find a dog that fits for you, not glancing once and giving up because "they don't have the right dog," so you run out & buy a puppy. The rescue we got my husky from constantly has mixes that look wolfy, and a lot of them have nowhere near the drive that "standard" dogs would have. The only reason I would EVER get a dog anywhere other than a shelter/rescue would be if I had a specific job or sport that I wanted to do with that dog, because THAT'S the reason (the way I see it) to go to a breeder. Pet dogs are EVERYWHERE.

tupacs2legs · 02-07-2010, 21:56

i have no problem people wanting a 'pet' i have one of these types (northern inuit)..but its beyond me how a dog made out of 3 possibly 4 driven working breeds will fit this scenario...not even knowing which traits will surface and in what way :-(

Gypsy Wolf · 02-07-2010, 22:54

You were very lucky that your Sibe was house-broken, etc., and had very few issues. Having worked at the SPCA local to me in NJ for 10 years, I can say that your experience is not necessarily the norm. So why did you pick a Sibe? Why didn't you adopt a more common "shelter" breed like a mutt? BECAUSE you liked the SIBE, not the Lab/Shepherd mixes that are all too common in shelters these days.
That said, I also have volunteered for Malinois rescue for many years - people who adopt our Mals could just as easily get a mutt from the pound, but they don't - they like Malinois - whether it's aesthetics or not. So I don't preach that there are enough pets in shelters for them to adopt... it is infrequent to find certain breeds in shelters - probably due to lack of overall numbers in the area. I can say the whole I time I was working in the shelter only a handful of purebred Sibes every came through our doors.
So I don't fault someone who wants a pet of a certain breed and seeks out a breeder, rather than adopting a shelter dog.
I adopted dogs from the shelter where I worked. Not always easy. So eventually I decided to research breeds I liked so that I could find a dog with character traits I wanted in a package that I liked.
Do I disagree - there are NOT good pet dogs that people want "everywhere" - that's exactly why Tamaskans came about. All breeds were created from some root stock - our own CsVs are bred from GSDs - just because it was a government program originally does not make it better or worse than someone going ahead and developing the Tamaskan.
And why NOT develop a breed just for companionship? Most of the Toy Group fit that.
My point is, so what is wrong with developing the Tamaskan? It more than certainly is NOT preventing the adoption of all the pit mixes in the shelter right now - the people who want a Tamaskan won't be the ones who adopt a mutt, or even a Sibe, for that matter - they want a Tamaskan. The same reason I wanted a Vlcak - hey, there are more wolf-hybrids available - and I could rescue one of those but I didn't want one - I wanted a Vlcak. I didn't want a pit mix or any other mutt. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but they are not right for me.
I am tired of people criticizing others for wanting and promoting purebred dogs over rescuing shelter dogs. In my experience, one really has nothing to do with the other. And when it comes right down to it, those same folks tend to have their breed preferences, too... that's what I meant by my comment. A lot of those same critical folks are just as selective of the dog they bring into their home, so why the criticism? A little hypocritical to me.

tupacs2legs · 02-07-2010, 23:11

here in England culling is not acceptable and the breeders of these dogs sell on most of the pups without neutering being enforced,they breed for what they think will look like a wolf,not very typy at all,all have different temperaments..basically a alot of crossbreed dogs,bred to order,bought on an impulse and discarded either,when bred from, or are too hard to handle...its my opinion in this day and age it is not ethical to breed dogs purely for looks,when there are enough crosses and purebreeds already to fit the purpose.

im talking ni's and 'ute's that we have here all with the same said mix as the tamaskan..where all these crosses start to breed to type is when they add csv...the breed (csv)isnt established in its own right here yet!

02-07-2010, 04:27	#2
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	I think the issue (the way I see it) is less of "wolf blood" (although that's what you hear) and more about temperament. The foundation of these dogs, from what I understand, are dogs with very watered-down drive, so the goal is a nice, even tempered, family dog that's easy to train and manage. Since the CsV is so "close" to wolves, and since they're bred with work/sport more in mind, they have a much higher drive and a rougher personality to deal with. In short, the Tamaskans should be "easy" dogs to own where CsVs take a lot of work and dedication. Learning about both breeds, this is the reason I've settled on the CsV as being the dog in my future. I personally feel dogs should be bred, and especially new breeds should only be created, for a real working function, or preservation of a past function. The Tamaskans (from my point of view) are the equivalent of watering down a breed for show, only these people are doing so deliberately to make a good house pet instead of it just being a byproduct of the show ring. (Honestly, don't see the point, there are plenty of perfectly good pet dogs around, no need to make more! But I digress...) In addition to that, it's the flat out lying about it that should get people riled up! It doesn't help in the slightest to establish a "breed" based on falsified pedigrees! Oh, & editing to add that as a Sibe person the breed does bother me a bit, but only because they're using Sibes to breed dogs without working function, not because of looking "wolfy"! Tamaskans are using the "wolfy" appearance as a marketing gimmick, really. Sibes & Mals are functional working dogs that happen to look "wolfy". Big difference! And honestly, if the breed were to become popular, I'd breath a little sigh of relief, because a Tamaskan would make a MUCH better housepet than a Sibe, and all too often people wanting a "wolfy" dog will run out to the first BYB Sibe breeder they can find. It's sad seeing so many dogs wind up in shelters or worse because people picking dogs just for "wolfy" appearance don't know what they're getting in to, and get in way over their heads. Last edited by Vicky; 02-07-2010 at 04:33.

01-07-2010, 23:20	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Interesting to me that the Tamaskan dog thing is causing a flurry... ALL DOGS are wolves, technically, and aren't WE the ones saying that CsVs are DOGS not wolves? Technically, they are not lying... we CsV folks say that our dogs are dogs and not wolves (and at this point they are all later than F5 generation, so even though we admit recent ancestry to the wolf, they are no longer hybrids), and just as technically, dogs are simply genetically manipulated wolves. Scientifically they have even been reclassified due to genetic study. So, if they used CsVs after F5, they are using DOGS, right? The only lie, technically, is saying there is no "wolf" in them - as all dogs are wolves... not because of their use of CsV genes... Personally I would think CsV genes would IMPROVE the breed, but I am biased. As an aside, really the Sibe and Malamute folks should be annoyed - they were really the first breeds to look wolfy...

02-07-2010, 18:42	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	No one wants to see their working dogs "watered down" - we have the same issue in Belgian Malinois (I have 2) and German Shepherds (I have 1), AND in Malinois we have the same issue of falsified pedigrees. No offense to any Dutch folks, but in the Malinois world it is common knowledge that the Dutch Malinois are mixes and one can never trust what is written on a pedigree - and even one famous French-bred dog, who appears in 95% of all Malinois pedigrees today NEVER ACTUALLY SIRED A LITTER. That said, I heartily DISAGREE that all dogs should be bred for a working purposes. Honestly, nowadays, most dogs ARE PETS. There are no more 300 sheep flocks to watch over, we don't need to subsist on wild-caught game, or have dogs retrieve ropes to anchor ships. Why are most dogs in shelters? Because of behavioral problems - many of which stem from the fact that the dog was too drivey and not able to be managed properly to channel that drive. The family wanted a PET. That is the new work of dogs. As we get further and further from our agrarian roots, dogs do too. Breeding for working drive, and not having a "market" for such is a serious issue. It's one reason I have never bred my Malinois. Not enough good homes for their "drive" requirements. On the flip side, I am not worried about placing my German Shepherd's pups. Though they are drivey enough to do Schutzhund and Herding, among other working venues, they are also calm enough to place appropriately into "pet" homes. And 90% of such litters go to pet homes. So why is it wrong for someone to want a gorgeous pet? Sheesh, if there wasn't a market, there would BE no Tamaskan dogs. So for you serious Sibe folks, be HAPPY someone is providing a "wolf-like" dog with a soft temperament for pet homes. Then they are not watering down your Sibes. Tell me, how often do you have to harness up your dogs and bring supplies out to far-flung Arctic encampments? Even Sibes don't have a "job" anymore! And the folks who DO long-distance sledding often mix Sibes with hounds and other breeds as pure Sibes apparently do not work as well as mixes. But those mutts are actually WORKING, so was it wrong to for the true working-sledding folks to create a better sledding mix rather than using pure-bred Sibes? Just food for thought. Certainly I do not want to see CsVs watered down, but I certainly cannot fault someone for wanting a beautiful pet. I also do not fault those same people for not going to the pound and "rescuing" someone else's garbage. I worked at a local SPCA for almost 10 years, and the dogs dumped there where discarded for a reason. Who wants to inherit a dog who bites, poos all over itself or other (insert bad habit)? Not only that, but aesthetics play a part. If I like a "wolfy" looking dog, why would I adopt a pitbull mix? Just because it is politically correct to adopt from a shelter? Think about it. Honestly. Ask yourself these same questions. Part of the reason we are attracted to a particular breed is also because we know there will be certain behavioral traits in that breed that we like. With a shelter dog, you have absolutely no clue what your are getting. I am not advocating AGAINST shelter dogs - I am just playing Devil's Advocate here, because people tend to get on their high horse and criticize others, when in fact, when it comes right down to it, they would do the same thing...

02-07-2010, 21:56	#7
tupacs2legs rookie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: london Posts: 320	i have no problem people wanting a 'pet' i have one of these types (northern inuit)..but its beyond me how a dog made out of 3 possibly 4 driven working breeds will fit this scenario...not even knowing which traits will surface and in what way :-(

02-07-2010, 22:54	#8
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	You were very lucky that your Sibe was house-broken, etc., and had very few issues. Having worked at the SPCA local to me in NJ for 10 years, I can say that your experience is not necessarily the norm. So why did you pick a Sibe? Why didn't you adopt a more common "shelter" breed like a mutt? BECAUSE you liked the SIBE, not the Lab/Shepherd mixes that are all too common in shelters these days. That said, I also have volunteered for Malinois rescue for many years - people who adopt our Mals could just as easily get a mutt from the pound, but they don't - they like Malinois - whether it's aesthetics or not. So I don't preach that there are enough pets in shelters for them to adopt... it is infrequent to find certain breeds in shelters - probably due to lack of overall numbers in the area. I can say the whole I time I was working in the shelter only a handful of purebred Sibes every came through our doors. So I don't fault someone who wants a pet of a certain breed and seeks out a breeder, rather than adopting a shelter dog. I adopted dogs from the shelter where I worked. Not always easy. So eventually I decided to research breeds I liked so that I could find a dog with character traits I wanted in a package that I liked. Do I disagree - there are NOT good pet dogs that people want "everywhere" - that's exactly why Tamaskans came about. All breeds were created from some root stock - our own CsVs are bred from GSDs - just because it was a government program originally does not make it better or worse than someone going ahead and developing the Tamaskan. And why NOT develop a breed just for companionship? Most of the Toy Group fit that. My point is, so what is wrong with developing the Tamaskan? It more than certainly is NOT preventing the adoption of all the pit mixes in the shelter right now - the people who want a Tamaskan won't be the ones who adopt a mutt, or even a Sibe, for that matter - they want a Tamaskan. The same reason I wanted a Vlcak - hey, there are more wolf-hybrids available - and I could rescue one of those but I didn't want one - I wanted a Vlcak. I didn't want a pit mix or any other mutt. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but they are not right for me. I am tired of people criticizing others for wanting and promoting purebred dogs over rescuing shelter dogs. In my experience, one really has nothing to do with the other. And when it comes right down to it, those same folks tend to have their breed preferences, too... that's what I meant by my comment. A lot of those same critical folks are just as selective of the dog they bring into their home, so why the criticism? A little hypocritical to me.

02-07-2010, 23:11	#9
tupacs2legs rookie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: london Posts: 320	here in England culling is not acceptable and the breeders of these dogs sell on most of the pups without neutering being enforced,they breed for what they think will look like a wolf,not very typy at all,all have different temperaments..basically a alot of crossbreed dogs,bred to order,bought on an impulse and discarded either,when bred from, or are too hard to handle...its my opinion in this day and age it is not ethical to breed dogs purely for looks,when there are enough crosses and purebreeds already to fit the purpose. im talking ni's and 'ute's that we have here all with the same said mix as the tamaskan..where all these crosses start to breed to type is when they add csv...the breed (csv)isnt established in its own right here yet!