Tamaskan Dogs..

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Aggression is not a bad thing. .

I didn't say it was, but for me

breeding (dogs) for using agression

is bad. People who train dogs for dog fighting breed those dogs for "using agression".

Most honest CSV breeders attempt to breed dogs which would have trainable characters, i.e. their natural aggression would be under control and used for rational purposes only. Remember that the standard says that CSV should be "versatile in his uses" (sic!) as well as "lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions, fearless and courageous.". Nothing about agression as such, though definietely a shy dog will not be able to meet the standard requirement. I.e. if shyness is to be considered the opposite of agression, which for me makes no sense anyway* .

That's why I asked what Jos meant and I think he meant the requirements of the standard, only used ambiguous wording.

* Shyness & agression come from the same source: insecurity. A dog that has good character after his parents, is well trained and self-confident is neither shy, nor agressive

[Joswolf]

I didn't mean now it is selective breeding for be able to use force or agression. But i read about the CWD,-
qualities make the Wolfdog perfect for rescue missions and ever since the beginning of its existence it has been used by the border guard, military, police
Temperament,Fearless and courageous.
Shopuld de dog go licking the one to death or attack and bite? What else can you use a dog for at police or millitary.
A Saarloos is more the shy type, and therefor not self-confident but that is a wolf aswell. You can try show pics of friendly rabbit loving dogs but i now other CWD and can show you other pics of a more often showen behavour. I find it more showing less intellegents when you do not now what to do with food.
Jos

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Joswolf:

"You can try show pics of friendly rabbit loving dogs but i now other CWD and can show you other pics of a more often showen behavour. I find it more showing less intellegents when you do not now what to do with food."

Yes, i think Jos is right here ! For my experience, most CWD will show the natural behaviour when meeting a rabbit at close distance....

In this way , my old CWD was a very typical " rabbit- lover", and my new one - who just has become nine months old - has already the same intentions.

Of course, if you let raise up a CWD together with rabbits ( or with cats or other animals) he will get used to these animals and not hunt or kill them when adult.

But this is not the normal behaviour.

And at last : hunting and agression is of course NOT the same.

[hanninadina]

From my point of view Jos is right. In comparison to the other two wolfdog breeds, csw are the one who show if it comes to the point aggression. Saarloos and american wolfdogs go back and would not attack. And of course it is standard that a csw should attack, ok when needed.

It is now a days much better, but we had only 5-7 years ago lots of shy but aggressive csw as well. And please people it takes you to nothing to show fotos from dogs who are raised up with their own famly pets as Sylvester already quotes. And it means nothing if you live alone with your csw and do not go in between other dogs and people. The comparison can be make if you see a csw acting in between other dogs. And sorry to say, you can let Saarloos - adult animals I mean - run around without leash, the same with american wolfdogs, but you never would be able to let csw run around free. We did often the comparison.

And now please do not come with your examples of places like Margo in Hokys memorial, there are runing around mostly only family memebers (dogs) who know each other very well.

I mean if a csw comes to a meeting where he does not know other dogs.

Sure you will find it in other breeds to, but that is not the point. We are only talking about the 3 wolfdog breeds and Tamaskan.

Christian

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And sorry to say, you can let Saarloos - adult animals I mean - run around without leash, the same with american wolfdogs, but you never would be able to let csw run around free. We did often the comparison.

Christian, I showed you photos of CSV running unleashed together, though the majority of them met each other for the first time and except two, were adult. http://picasaweb.google.pl/rpaszkows...lcaksMeetings#
and asked you for comments. So did Elf in another topic, but you never replied only repeat the same nonsense again and again.

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot

PS. Anticipating your argument that they were all from the same 'family', I'd like to add that they came from the following kennels: Radov Dvor and Maly Bysterec (Slovakia), z Peronówki, Braterstwo Wilczaków and Cwany Wilk (Poland), od Starkej and Srdcerváč (Czech Republic).

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Obviously a lot of people have a lot of halluzinations



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and some more, different occasions, different dogs, different owners and yes, you need an owner that is able to train a dog without the flight reaction of a wild animal.
http://img17.imageshack.us/slideshow...=dsc04956b.jpg

Ina

[Gypsy Wolf]

To Rona -
Aggression is NOT the opposite of shy. Aggression is the "drive" to use force to meet a situation. Prey drive (chase, capture, kill, eat) is aggression, dominance displays, territorial, protection/defense of pack/puppies, FEAR (BAD CHARACTER) based behaviors all carry aggression.
I am speaking strictly as an Ethologist/Behaviorist. Aggression is not bad, and it is a NECESSARY component of most successful species. Who wins the fight? And the winner gets the resources and more chances to reproduce. The Romans did not conquer most of the known world with peace and love, and despite what they preach, neither did Christians. It was aggression.
In dogs, we harness it. We breed to bring it out. As we domesticated wild canids (or really, they domesticated themselves), we decided it was better for us to breed dogs that had aggression levels that trumped their "flight response" - one reason real wolves/high content hybrids are not successful as protection dogs - if you run away, you live to fight another day. Their "resources" are better spent somewhere else!
COURAGE is the opposite of "shyness" - the willingness to engage a threat using aggression.
Again, INAPPROPRIATE, uncontrolled aggression is the danger. Owners who do not understand behavior and allow insecure/dominant dogs to "take over" - FEAR-AGGRESSIVE dogs that have a "low threshhold" for stimulus and will display or even attack when there is really no threat...
CsVs HAD to have a certain level of aggression in order to perform the job they were bred for. This is part of who they are. To breed for a temperament that carries none of this is a disservice to the breed, and really is NOT characteristic of the CsV, IMHO. Might as well have a Saarloos!
That is one reason I am a fan of working titles and temperament tests - to preserve and maintain the working drive of the breed.
I am not advocating breeding solely for a "grip" or a "low threshhold" (a lot of "breeders" do not understand behavior and aggression and breed incorrect temperament thinking that because his fear-aggressive dog display/bites it is indicative of correct character) I see this in Malinois all the time and all it does is produce an unsafe, unbalanced animal. But to remove correct aggression from our breed is wrong, too. A Unicorn without a horn is just a horse... all the magic is lost.

[GalomyOak]

To be sure, Bongo, my rabbit loving dog, had never seen a rabbit before - this one was removed from a cat, wild. He knows the command "leave it". When he finds rabbits out in the grass, he takes off after them - my dogs all have high prey drive. When I tell him "down" in that situation, he stops running - dead - and drops to the ground. He is also training in Schutzhund - along with my younger male. They have no problem placing their teeth on objects in the possession of people. At my command - and no problem taking their teeth off, at my command. It's not fearful aggression, and it's not necessarily a "natural" behavior - it's positive reinforcement of biting and holding the object in possession of a person - in the case of SchH, a bite sleeve. All of my dogs can be safely released around other stable dogs known or unknown - it's no problem. They don't assume the role of a submissive or shy omega as an AWD frequently does, however. They can all be released off leash around any person at any time, it's no problem for large men, small children or old ladies to play with my dogs - usually strangers, I'm a bit of a hermit . Two have received therapy dog certification, Bongo will hopefully recieve his this autumn. All very different lines from distant countries. This is training and socialization - exposing and teaching how to act in all situations. Yes, they are family raised dogs, but with sufficient time spent on their own in runs when I am not at home...aren't most CSVs nowadays?

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Rona

The fact that you cannot train your CSVs to be able to run unleashed among other dogs does not mean that others owners/breeders cannot

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Fede86

mmmmmmh... I don't think the point is if you can or can not do it... of course if you work well and hard enough you can, whatever the breed. The point is how difficult it is. Surely it's not a spontaneous behavior for them (or better yet, for most of them), and not so easy to obtain.

Agree! It's not easy, maybe not every dog can be trained but one should not generalize that it's impossible if there are cases/stories/witnesses/photos, etc. which show the opposite.

I just don't undersand people who always 'know best' but derive their knowledge solely from their own exprience.