DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

Mikael · 27-07-2010, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.

Are they totally crazy

please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian

Very best regards / Mikael

massimo · 27-07-2010, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Are they totally crazy

please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian

Very best regards / Mikael

Believe me...on Italian forum has been written a lot more than here, just that people tend to be affected by hysteria, so short recaps (like I did both here and there) are sometimes necessary.
Not crazy nor stupid... just distracted, excited, scared...

Gypsy Wolf · 27-07-2010, 17:18

It is foolish to remove A/A dogs from the gene pool if they have qualities we need in the breed - not to mention simply keeping our gene pool from becoming too small... carefully planned breeding, with screening for the genes, is what we need to do. Of course it is every breeders choice whether they screen or breed to Abnormal dogs...
A/A dogs are only at risk for DM, as stated before. Apparently there are other factors (perhaps developmental, nutritional, environmental) that affect whether or not the dog develops the disease.
Here in FL we are lucky to have Dr. Clemmons, a world-renowned expert on the disease who actually found the genes and devised the test. He also has designed a specific nutritional, vitamin/mineral/nutroceutical program for those dogs that have DM, and has advocated putting at risk dogs on the program, too, with the hopes of staving off contracting the symptoms. It is really unknown whether or not this affects progression of the disease, as it is so variable in progression from patient to patient, so even a "control" group of DM dogs is not necessarily going to help prove efficacy of the program.
I have spoken to him several times on the phone regarding DM, as I have had several friends with dogs who have contracted the disease, and I also have GSDs and occasionally breed my GSD. He feels that up to 50% of GSDs carry an Abnormal allele - whether they are A/N or A/A - so testing is important. Interestingly, I am the only breeder I know of in this area that tests for it. The other breeders I know down here scoff at the test saying it's "too new" and "doesn't mean anything." Personally, I think they are afraid of knowing if their dogs are carrying the genetics... that would mean they would have to inform puppy buyers, and potentially remove some of their stock. One breeder I know cranks out puppies for profit (she has well-bred parents - SchH titled sire) and is already on her "P" litter after only about 3 years of breeding... I personally know her male is a carrier, but she doesn't care and is not going to test her bitches, puppies or even mention the disease to her buyers. I wonder what will happen a few years down the road when some of those buyers tell her their dog is afflicted with DM? It is a genetically-based disease, and her contract guarantees genetic health. Here in FL she would be responsible for not only the purchase price of the puppy, but all the resultant medical bills, too. So stupid to ignore a problem like that - ethically and financially, in her case.
It's one thing if you don't know, and have no way of finding out, but it's another to turn a blind eye to such a debilitating disease... to knowingly produce Abnormal animals, that may potentially be used for breeding themselves... morally reprehensible, in my opinion, and a disservice to the breed.

draggar · 31-08-2010, 23:41

OK, I am mad, annoyed, and highly disappointed in the GSD community now.

Over 24 hours ago I posted a "why don't breeders test for DM" in a popular German shepherd based forum. I went into the benefits of testing, how it can be used, even the minimal costs of the tests ($130 for a breeding pair!!).

The thread has had 31 views. Anyone want to take a guess at how many responses?

25? Nope, lower.

20? Nope, lower.

15? Nope, lower.

5??? Nope, lower.

1???? Nope, lower.

That's right, not a single person (and there are many breeders on the forum) responded. Are German shepherd "professionals" this apathetic towards the test? Do they just not care??

All well as responses I get from so-called ethical breeders (like, "we don't test because it's not in our lines" or "we've never had an issue with DM so we don't test for it", and "the test isn't worth it").

Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot

Seriously, is this where the breed is headed? It's easy to breed DM into dogs and I'm sure it won't be long until DM is a serious issue (well, moreso than it is now). Statistically, 50% of GSDs are carriers (N/A or A/N) and only 25% are clear (N/N) (and the other 25% are affected (A/A).

I'm just glad that we tested Kiri and she's N/N. We can breed her to any male and guarantee (short of any genetic mutation, which the chances are extremely small) that her puppies WILL NOT develop DM - EVER.

massimo · 09-10-2010, 14:52

Just for Public info as there is not a "DM" space to be put on WD dog profile yet (hope there will be soon)

Echo Crying Wolf
DM N/N = Negative

Mikael · 10-04-2011, 00:01

Degenerative Myelopathy Testing

A DNA Test for
DM

Understanding the DNA Test for Degenerative Myelopathy

"We have discovered a mutation in a gene which is associated with development of degenerative myelopathy (DM).
In that gene, the DNA occurs in two possible forms (or alleles). The “G” allele is the predominant form in dogs that seldom or never develop DM; you can think of it as the “Good” allele. The “A” allele is more frequent in dogs exhibiting clinical signs of DM; you can think of it as the “Affected” allele.
Summary: “A” allele is associated with DM; “G” allele is not associated with DM.

Since an individual dog inherits two alleles (one from the sire and one from the dam) there are three possible test results: two “A” alleles; one “A” and one “G” allele; and, two “G” alleles.
Summary: Test results can be A/A (affected/at risk), A/G (carrier), or G/G (normal) .

Microscopic examination of a section of spinal cord (following euthanasia) is the "gold standard" for diagnosing and confirming DM. We do not have the opportunity to examine cord samples from all the dogs that have died or been euthanized due to DM, but for those cords submitted for evaluation, and where the cellular changes have been consistent with a diagnosis of DM, the dogs have had a DNA test result of A/A in all but 2 individuals. There is additional work being done to better understand these 2 exceptions, but it is clear that the vast majority of real DM cases do have the A/A test result.
Summary: Dogs that test A/G or G/G are very unlikely to develop DM. Dogs that test A/A are likely to develop clinical signs of DM at some point as they age.

Additional research now in progress is focused on understanding why some A/A dogs show clincal signs of DM at 7 or 8 years of age while others only begin to show clinical signs at 14 or 15yrs or older, or may die from some other cause without developing recognized clinical signs of DM.

The “A” allele is very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate the dogs testing A/A or A/G might be destructive to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed. Nonetheless, DM should be taken seriously. It is a fatal disease with devastating consequences for the dogs and a very unpleasant experience for the owners who care for them. Thus, a realistic approach when considering which dogs to select for breeding would be to consider dogs with the A/A or A/G test result to have a fault, just as a poor top-line or imperfect gait would be considered faults. Dogs that test A/A should be considered to have a worse fault than those that test A/G. Dog breeders could then continue to do what conscientious breeders have always done: make their selections for breeding stock in light of all of the dogs’ good points and all of the dogs’ faults. Using this approach over many generations should substantially reduce the prevalence of DM while continuing to maintain or improve those qualities that have contributed to the various dog breeds.

Summary: We recommend that dog breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize this test result. Instead, the test result is one factor among many in a balanced breeding program."

.................................................. ..................................................

MORE INFO HERE >>> www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/testDM.htm

31-08-2010, 23:41	#4
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	OK, I am mad, annoyed, and highly disappointed in the GSD community now. Over 24 hours ago I posted a "why don't breeders test for DM" in a popular German shepherd based forum. I went into the benefits of testing, how it can be used, even the minimal costs of the tests ($130 for a breeding pair!!). The thread has had 31 views. Anyone want to take a guess at how many responses? 25? Nope, lower. 20? Nope, lower. 15? Nope, lower. 5??? Nope, lower. 1???? Nope, lower. That's right, not a single person (and there are many breeders on the forum) responded. Are German shepherd "professionals" this apathetic towards the test? Do they just not care?? All well as responses I get from so-called ethical breeders (like, "we don't test because it's not in our lines" or "we've never had an issue with DM so we don't test for it", and "the test isn't worth it"). Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Seriously, is this where the breed is headed? It's easy to breed DM into dogs and I'm sure it won't be long until DM is a serious issue (well, moreso than it is now). Statistically, 50% of GSDs are carriers (N/A or A/N) and only 25% are clear (N/N) (and the other 25% are affected (A/A). I'm just glad that we tested Kiri and she's N/N. We can breed her to any male and guarantee (short of any genetic mutation, which the chances are extremely small) that her puppies WILL NOT develop DM - EVER. __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

09-10-2010, 14:52	#5
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Just for Public info as there is not a "DM" space to be put on WD dog profile yet (hope there will be soon) Echo Crying Wolf DM N/N = Negative __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-04-2011, 00:01	#6
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	Degenerative Myelopathy Testing A DNA Test for DM Understanding the DNA Test for Degenerative Myelopathy "We have discovered a mutation in a gene which is associated with development of degenerative myelopathy (DM). In that gene, the DNA occurs in two possible forms (or alleles). The “G” allele is the predominant form in dogs that seldom or never develop DM; you can think of it as the “Good” allele. The “A” allele is more frequent in dogs exhibiting clinical signs of DM; you can think of it as the “Affected” allele. Summary: “A” allele is associated with DM; “G” allele is not associated with DM. Since an individual dog inherits two alleles (one from the sire and one from the dam) there are three possible test results: two “A” alleles; one “A” and one “G” allele; and, two “G” alleles. *Summary: Test results can be A/A (affected/at risk), A/G (carrier), or G/G (normal)* . Microscopic examination of a section of spinal cord (following euthanasia) is the "gold standard" for diagnosing and confirming DM. We do not have the opportunity to examine cord samples from all the dogs that have died or been euthanized due to DM, but for those cords submitted for evaluation, and where the cellular changes have been consistent with a diagnosis of DM, the dogs have had a DNA test result of A/A in all but 2 individuals. There is additional work being done to better understand these 2 exceptions, but it is clear that the vast majority of real DM cases do have the A/A test result. Summary: Dogs that test A/G or G/G are very unlikely to develop DM. Dogs that test A/A are likely to develop clinical signs of DM at some point as they age. Additional research now in progress is focused on understanding why some A/A dogs show clincal signs of DM at 7 or 8 years of age while others only begin to show clinical signs at 14 or 15yrs or older, or may die from some other cause without developing recognized clinical signs of DM. The “A” allele is very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate the dogs testing A/A or A/G might be destructive to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed. Nonetheless, DM should be taken seriously. It is a fatal disease with devastating consequences for the dogs and a very unpleasant experience for the owners who care for them. Thus, a realistic approach when considering which dogs to select for breeding would be to consider dogs with the A/A or A/G test result to have a fault, just as a poor top-line or imperfect gait would be considered faults. Dogs that test A/A should be considered to have a worse fault than those that test A/G. Dog breeders could then continue to do what conscientious breeders have always done: make their selections for breeding stock in light of all of the dogs’ good points and all of the dogs’ faults. Using this approach over many generations should substantially reduce the prevalence of DM while continuing to maintain or improve those qualities that have contributed to the various dog breeds. Summary: We recommend that dog breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize this test result. Instead, the test result is one factor among many in a balanced breeding program." .................................................. .................................................. MORE INFO HERE >>> www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/testDM.htm __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916 Last edited by Mikael; 10-04-2011 at 00:10.

27-07-2010, 17:18	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	It is foolish to remove A/A dogs from the gene pool if they have qualities we need in the breed - not to mention simply keeping our gene pool from becoming too small... carefully planned breeding, with screening for the genes, is what we need to do. Of course it is every breeders choice whether they screen or breed to Abnormal dogs... A/A dogs are only at risk for DM, as stated before. Apparently there are other factors (perhaps developmental, nutritional, environmental) that affect whether or not the dog develops the disease. Here in FL we are lucky to have Dr. Clemmons, a world-renowned expert on the disease who actually found the genes and devised the test. He also has designed a specific nutritional, vitamin/mineral/nutroceutical program for those dogs that have DM, and has advocated putting at risk dogs on the program, too, with the hopes of staving off contracting the symptoms. It is really unknown whether or not this affects progression of the disease, as it is so variable in progression from patient to patient, so even a "control" group of DM dogs is not necessarily going to help prove efficacy of the program. I have spoken to him several times on the phone regarding DM, as I have had several friends with dogs who have contracted the disease, and I also have GSDs and occasionally breed my GSD. He feels that up to 50% of GSDs carry an Abnormal allele - whether they are A/N or A/A - so testing is important. Interestingly, I am the only breeder I know of in this area that tests for it. The other breeders I know down here scoff at the test saying it's "too new" and "doesn't mean anything." Personally, I think they are afraid of knowing if their dogs are carrying the genetics... that would mean they would have to inform puppy buyers, and potentially remove some of their stock. One breeder I know cranks out puppies for profit (she has well-bred parents - SchH titled sire) and is already on her "P" litter after only about 3 years of breeding... I personally know her male is a carrier, but she doesn't care and is not going to test her bitches, puppies or even mention the disease to her buyers. I wonder what will happen a few years down the road when some of those buyers tell her their dog is afflicted with DM? It is a genetically-based disease, and her contract guarantees genetic health. Here in FL she would be responsible for not only the purchase price of the puppy, but all the resultant medical bills, too. So stupid to ignore a problem like that - ethically and financially, in her case. It's one thing if you don't know, and have no way of finding out, but it's another to turn a blind eye to such a debilitating disease... to knowingly produce Abnormal animals, that may potentially be used for breeding themselves... morally reprehensible, in my opinion, and a disservice to the breed.