Calculation of Wolf blood?

Gypsy Wolf · 07-08-2010, 23:12

Yes, there are apparently wolves in any given litter that have more "tame" characteristics... I have a subscription to that "Wolfdog" Magazine, and there are wolf breeders who "selectively" breed wolves to produce animals suitable for "educational" purposes... obviously you don't want a shy nutball in a classroom... I am curious to know how often they have to infuse new "wild" blood, though, as like the Balyeav Fox experiment, selecting just for tameness produces "infantile" and "domestic" traits - in foxes, curled spitz-like tails, floppy ears and patchwork coats....
So I would think if one bred wild wolves long enough selecting just tameness, obviously a DOG would emerge! And if one IS breeding wild wolves, at some point DO THEY BECOME DOGS?

hanninadina · 09-08-2010, 11:06

Even in Finland it is allowed to have wolfdogs, no matter if F 1 or high content. They do wolfdogshows and is written about in the newspapers!

What do you mean with "wild" wolves? Wolf pups getting out of the wild and than raised up in human hands?

These wolves you are talking about are for many many years in peoples hands and are almost like dogs. Mostly in behaviour not quite different to csw! But much more calm and no aggression or hyperactivity. German shepard is mostly missing in them.... They go back and not in front like a dog, they do not attack.

Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 09-08-2010, 16:50

By "wild wolves" I am referring to wild parents - the pups obviously have to be raised by humans to become acclimated... so, say that is your first generation out of the wild... of those pups, you select the "tamest" and breed them - second generation removed from the wild... the pups they have would be third generation from "wild" - even if you are using selective breeding (say, only MacKenzie Valley wolves), by generation "4" of HUMAN SELECTED BREEDING, are they DOGS or WOLVES?

hanninadina · 09-08-2010, 17:16

Wolves.

I think, in only 4 generations from the wild you will get a wolfdog, if you have the chance to breed only tame open wolves. I know two wild caught (as puppies) wolves, a male and a female. The female is open and friendly and is not afraid of strangers. The male is a bit back, I would not say shy. He stays in about 4 m away, but he does not try to hide or something like this. They are only one year old and we will see how they develop.

Here you get very good information, how it "works" breeding wolves to dogs:

http://www.floridalupine.org/publica...s_and_Dogs.htm

But of course there can be tame wolves from the wild. The problem is you have to get a pair so that you can breed them in further back generations. But how you will can say there are wild wolves which are tame? You must have the chance to watch them in nature. So you had to get the whole litters to watch and then to decide. This is almost impossible. There are a lot of wolves in zoos, animalpark, movie industry, where you can get them as adults or as pups.

Saying it needs only 3 generations to get a dog out of a wolf means crossing pure wolf with wolfdog or dog. And there are some exceptions where these wolfdogs are F 2 and like dog. And there are wolves who are 12 generations behind wild caught wolves and they only look like wolves but they are dogs.

Looking at the statement from Monty Sloan that it needs 2 time of work life to get a dog out of a wolf would mean that you need about 70 to 80 years to get a dog. But I think he meant to breed only wolves from the start getting them out of the wild. But even that is too long. I will talk to him soon when I will meet him in september in sweden.

Christian

07-08-2010, 23:12	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, there are apparently wolves in any given litter that have more "tame" characteristics... I have a subscription to that "Wolfdog" Magazine, and there are wolf breeders who "selectively" breed wolves to produce animals suitable for "educational" purposes... obviously you don't want a shy nutball in a classroom... I am curious to know how often they have to infuse new "wild" blood, though, as like the Balyeav Fox experiment, selecting just for tameness produces "infantile" and "domestic" traits - in foxes, curled spitz-like tails, floppy ears and patchwork coats.... So I would think if one bred wild wolves long enough selecting just tameness, obviously a DOG would emerge! And if one IS breeding wild wolves, at some point DO THEY BECOME DOGS?

09-08-2010, 11:06	#2
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Even in Finland it is allowed to have wolfdogs, no matter if F 1 or high content. They do wolfdogshows and is written about in the newspapers! What do you mean with "wild" wolves? Wolf pups getting out of the wild and than raised up in human hands? These wolves you are talking about are for many many years in peoples hands and are almost like dogs. Mostly in behaviour not quite different to csw! But much more calm and no aggression or hyperactivity. German shepard is mostly missing in them.... They go back and not in front like a dog, they do not attack. Christian

09-08-2010, 16:50	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	By "wild wolves" I am referring to wild parents - the pups obviously have to be raised by humans to become acclimated... so, say that is your first generation out of the wild... of those pups, you select the "tamest" and breed them - second generation removed from the wild... the pups they have would be third generation from "wild" - even if you are using selective breeding (say, only MacKenzie Valley wolves), by generation "4" of HUMAN SELECTED BREEDING, are they DOGS or WOLVES?

09-08-2010, 17:16	#4
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Wolves. I think, in only 4 generations from the wild you will get a wolfdog, if you have the chance to breed only tame open wolves. I know two wild caught (as puppies) wolves, a male and a female. The female is open and friendly and is not afraid of strangers. The male is a bit back, I would not say shy. He stays in about 4 m away, but he does not try to hide or something like this. They are only one year old and we will see how they develop. Here you get very good information, how it "works" breeding wolves to dogs: http://www.floridalupine.org/publica...s_and_Dogs.htm But of course there can be tame wolves from the wild. The problem is you have to get a pair so that you can breed them in further back generations. But how you will can say there are wild wolves which are tame? You must have the chance to watch them in nature. So you had to get the whole litters to watch and then to decide. This is almost impossible. There are a lot of wolves in zoos, animalpark, movie industry, where you can get them as adults or as pups. Saying it needs only 3 generations to get a dog out of a wolf means crossing pure wolf with wolfdog or dog. And there are some exceptions where these wolfdogs are F 2 and like dog. And there are wolves who are 12 generations behind wild caught wolves and they only look like wolves but they are dogs. Looking at the statement from Monty Sloan that it needs 2 time of work life to get a dog out of a wolf would mean that you need about 70 to 80 years to get a dog. But I think he meant to breed only wolves from the start getting them out of the wild. But even that is too long. I will talk to him soon when I will meet him in september in sweden. Christian