electrical collars

Gypsy Wolf · 23-10-2010, 00:19

As I have said before ~ there are no bad "tools" just bad use of those tools. Electric collars have their place - though I do not use them on a regular basis, there have been dogs I have trained that have NEEDED such a tool. Dogs that are so "collar-" or "leash-wise" that they need to know that even off-lead their human has control.
Vlcaks are a breed that I can see are smart enough to know whether their handler can correct them or not. And I am sorry Clicker People, but sometimes even the highest-value food reward is NOT as attractive as doing the naughty thing they want to do.
And I am sorry - if I need to use an electric collar to make sure my vlcak doesn't dash out into traffic - I would rather use that than see my dog hit by a car.

yukidomari · 23-10-2010, 07:59

Luna's mom - I'm sure you're aware but clicker training isn't just about high value food, although certainly often it is. It can be used with anything from toys, to the sleeve, to other behavior the dog finds self-rewarding.

And personally to prevent my dog from running out into the streets, I use a leash. Yes, that's a tool, but I also know that an electric stim from a e-collar won't stop some dogs from chasing prey into the streets, but a leash will.

To each his own.. I have used an e-collar before and I think for the regular person, you don't need training based on aversives to get what you want in a regular, everyday arsenal of easy, normal commands like "sit" "stay" "down" or "heel".

Like in this scenario as described by the original poster. ...I kind of don't understand why the OP chose to use an e-collar on her dog that chased other animals and bit people, instead of using a leash with muzzle, perhaps. It doesn't seem to me that a dog with a bite history would be easily broken of such behavior just simply with electric stim, and if so, if that would actually be right to now call the dog "safe in public" just because it has an e-collar on. I certainly wouldn't feel safe.

(Never mind, I just now read your earlier post and it seems like we are actually agreeing.. )

Of course, though, I know of situations where you might use an electric stim.. for example, on a hunting dog that needs to be off leash, or, rattlesnake avoidance training.

And I felt like I had to add: OP said that for an inexperienced owner, the e-collar was a good solution vs a professional trainer. I think this is the furthest from the truth you can get... :S

If a person uses an e-collar, said person should be MORE in tune with a dog and more experienced with different types of training and dog behavior than the average person. You can't mess up a dog with messed up positive reinforcement as badly as you can mess up a dog with messed up e-collar training!!

tupacs2legs · 23-10-2010, 15:14

... here in England e collars are banned in Wales.... hopefully in the rest of the country soon.

..... a leash and muzzle combined with knowledgeable training should all that is required imo (for a pet dog)

e collars should not be available to the general public that have little understanding of training and behaviour...they are seen as a quick 'fix' that often masks the problem and does not solve it.

your dog is a 'teenager' do u remember what it was like to be one of them? testing,challenging, seeing how far you could push

Enid Black · 26-10-2010, 11:37

errata corrige

e collars are not banned in Italy. It is just banned their abuse when causing ill-treatment to dogs...

just for love of truth XD...

I still don't like 'em...

Anuk · 16-11-2010, 16:25

There has been a dissertation at the UNi Hannover to evaluate the stress, the collars really provoke:
result: pinch collar are worse than electric collars!!!
link: http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissert...rliy_ws08.html

Gypsy Wolf · 17-11-2010, 02:34

Yes, I can see how that might be. Dogs perceive that a correction from an electric collar is "from God" whereas they see their handler "wind up and yank" to apply a correction from a prong, so they know the source, which I think would cause conflict and be more stressful.
I think that it is not the tool but the user that makes it abusive.

23-10-2010, 07:59	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Luna's mom - I'm sure you're aware but clicker training isn't just about high value food, although certainly often it is. It can be used with anything from toys, to the sleeve, to other behavior the dog finds self-rewarding. And personally to prevent my dog from running out into the streets, I use a leash. Yes, that's a tool, but I also know that an electric stim from a e-collar won't stop some dogs from chasing prey into the streets, but a leash will. To each his own.. I have used an e-collar before and I think for the regular person, you don't need training based on aversives to get what you want in a regular, everyday arsenal of easy, normal commands like "sit" "stay" "down" or "heel". Like in this scenario as described by the original poster. ...I kind of don't understand why the OP chose to use an e-collar on her dog that chased other animals and bit people, instead of using a leash with muzzle, perhaps. It doesn't seem to me that a dog with a bite history would be easily broken of such behavior just simply with electric stim, and if so, if that would actually be right to now call the dog "safe in public" just because it has an e-collar on. I certainly wouldn't feel safe. (Never mind, I just now read your earlier post and it seems like we are actually agreeing.. ) Of course, though, I know of situations where you might use an electric stim.. for example, on a hunting dog that needs to be off leash, or, rattlesnake avoidance training. And I felt like I had to add: OP said that for an inexperienced owner, the e-collar was a good solution vs a professional trainer. I think this is the furthest from the truth you can get... :S If a person uses an e-collar, said person should be MORE in tune with a dog and more experienced with different types of training and dog behavior than the average person. You can't mess up a dog with messed up positive reinforcement as badly as you can mess up a dog with messed up e-collar training!! Last edited by yukidomari; 23-10-2010 at 08:14.

26-10-2010, 11:37	#4
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	errata corrige e collars are not banned in Italy. It is just banned their abuse when causing ill-treatment to dogs... just for love of truth XD... I still don't like 'em... __________________ Enid Black, Gianni, Spettro and Kira

23-10-2010, 00:19	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	As I have said before ~ there are no bad "tools" just bad use of those tools. Electric collars have their place - though I do not use them on a regular basis, there have been dogs I have trained that have NEEDED such a tool. Dogs that are so "collar-" or "leash-wise" that they need to know that even off-lead their human has control. Vlcaks are a breed that I can see are smart enough to know whether their handler can correct them or not. And I am sorry Clicker People, but sometimes even the highest-value food reward is NOT as attractive as doing the naughty thing they want to do. And I am sorry - if I need to use an electric collar to make sure my vlcak doesn't dash out into traffic - I would rather use that than see my dog hit by a car.

23-10-2010, 15:14	#3
tupacs2legs rookie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: london Posts: 320	... here in England e collars are banned in Wales.... hopefully in the rest of the country soon. ..... a leash and muzzle combined with knowledgeable training should all that is required imo (for a pet dog) e collars should not be available to the general public that have little understanding of training and behaviour...they are seen as a quick 'fix' that often masks the problem and does not solve it. your dog is a 'teenager' do u remember what it was like to be one of them? testing,challenging, seeing how far you could push

16-11-2010, 16:25	#5
Anuk Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Berlin Posts: 74	There has been a dissertation at the UNi Hannover to evaluate the stress, the collars really provoke: result: pinch collar are worse than electric collars!!! link: http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissert...rliy_ws08.html

17-11-2010, 02:34	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, I can see how that might be. Dogs perceive that a correction from an electric collar is "from God" whereas they see their handler "wind up and yank" to apply a correction from a prong, so they know the source, which I think would cause conflict and be more stressful. I think that it is not the tool but the user that makes it abusive.