Rep z Pohranìení

[pedrocalle]

I raised this topic because it seems to me to be very important, but simultaneously it seems to me to be slightly worrying. If we pull the thread wherefrom our current dogs come, they all end in Rep.

I agree with the practices of imbreding and line breding. But in the moment in which all the breeders do the same practice with the same copy, the consanguiniedad that is obtained is brutal, besides the consanguiniedad that already was brought of before.
I think that there would be necessary to search (if other lines exist) to be able to continue pulling the thread.

Some of them also think that there would be necessary to incorporate new blood of wolf but treated by recognized professionals and correctly realized.
Iran looks like to me an extraordinary dog and a resource mas, but still in it continues taking Rep's blood.


But ... indeed there does not exist any dog that does not come from this line?

[Vaiva]

So it would be usefull to make combinations when breeding with the lowest procent of Rep? Am I thinking right?

[jefta]

Is it known where is Rep's corpse? Maybe its useful taking DNA sample of so important dog for our breed?

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

The problem is not Rep, in several breeds you can meet even more restricted genetic pool, even if all dogs comes back to Rep in 8 or 9 generation, differents preferences in the selection of the breed should mantain the tipicity while at the same time as small diferences from region to region will appear, also as different genetical conections, which can garantee the genetical diversity enough to preserve the breed.

I agree with this.. the problem is not Rep but rather informed (or not informed) decisions on future breeding. In basic understanding of line-breeding or tightly in-bred lines, the problem is only that bad/unwanted traits have the ability to more quickly or severely manifest, but the same is true for good/wanted traits as well.

Breeding from dogs with low relationship to Rep only increases the likelihood that unwanted genes or attributes will be diluted. It's not a guarantee nor does it mean that outcrosses are always the best bet in breeding choices.
It is highly possible that relatively unrelated dogs have their own set of unwanted genetic traits or even identical ones.. so it's not as simple as selecting dogs that are more unrelated.

Many breeds have even smaller genetic pools, some as small as 4 founding dogs.

In the far future, it is inevitable that all closed gene pools of any breed of dog will meet a genetic bottle-neck, but good management at this point can prolong the genetic health of this closed genetic pool.

With this in mind, "interesting bloodlines" can only be used so far in justification for using a dog as a potential stud. I can understand why Iran may be used, as his faults are relatively minor in comparison with what he can contribute genetically, but at the same time a dog with disqualifying faults such as with poor dentition, falling ears, or a cowardly character should be very carefully, if at all, considered for breeding, no matter how interesting his genetics. Perhaps those genes are ones that are not meant to be carried to the next generation.

[buidelwolf]

Paula, Thanks for the very nice video of Iran. He certainly has a great life with you, as he undoubtedly had with Margo! In appearance he might perhaps not be the most special, but he comes from a special line and it shows professionalism to use her. Good, having him as a breeding base in Brazil and fortunately we also have his beautiful offspring in Europe!

Pedrocalle:

But ... indeed there does not exist any dog that does not come from this line?

Nowadays, no, there is certainly no CSV without Rep in its pedigree (except the mixes….). Almost without exception even with a heavy dose.

Yukidomari:

the problem is not Rep but rather informed (or not informed) decisions on future breeding. In basic understanding of line-breeding or tightly in-bred lines, the problem is only that bad/unwanted traits have the ability to more quickly or severely manifest, but the same is true for good/wanted traits as well.

Regarding the last sentence: true but it’s a bit the opposite approach and some important preconditions are missing. Rep himself is not a problem indeed; like earlier stated, he’s been very important in settling important characteristics we have nowadays. The problem is that he was used too frequently and was mixed up too quickly in all lines and heavy inbreeding was severely and frequently practiced with him, while at the same time many CSV’s from those days with potention, simply faded away without offspring. The result was an irreversible narrowed gene pool with increasing average COI, with Rep prominently present in all CSV’s. Linebreeding (not inbreeding) as an instrument for settling preferred characteristics is to my opinion still a legitimate and effective method, if practised professionaly, occasionally, under strict conditions. Like if always soon outcrossing to almost unrelated dogs within the population follows to avoid negative recessive genes combining to homozygous with all its consequences. Outcrossing, with the correct meaning of it, isn’t possible anymore unfortunately within our race and therefore linebreeding should be undesired in order to protect the fragile genepool from further narrowing. So from this point of view it would perhaps be advisable using the last handful of CSV's with a low proportion of Rep, before they too fade away. Quite apart from all other conditions which one must take into account of course. Citing that the situation in other breeds is much worse is not an argument and is no reason to be not very careful and critical. Let us just learn from the mistakes made in numerous other breeds!

Back to the original topic Rep. The CSV Asta z Tondova CS (died 9 october 2002 at age 16 ½ years of age!), was a bitch with a COI below average and 0% inbreeding on Rep. He only occurs once in her full pedigree! Rep was only her great grandfather from fathers’ side. I unraveled some of her descendants and discovered some, probably still living today, with very low "Rep content":

Name CSV & % of Rep in COI (8 generations)
Edy od Buližníku 3,71%
Art Vlčí sen 4,22%
Urio du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Typhon du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Amarok Šedý chlup 4,60%

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Back to the original topic Rep. The CSV Asta z Tondova CS (died 9 october 2002 at age 16 ½ years of age!), was a bitch with a COI below average and 0% inbreeding on Rep. He only occurs once in her full pedigree! Rep was only her great grandfather from fathers’ side. I unraveled some of her descendants and discovered some, probably still living today, with very low "Rep content":

Name CSV & % of Rep in COI (8 generations)
Edy od Buližníku 3,71%
Art Vlčí sen 4,22%
Urio du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Typhon du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Amarok Šedý chlup 4,60%

Thanks Buidelwolf And don´t you just love elf I do

Best regards / Mikael

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Linebreeding (not inbreeding) as an instrument for settling preferred characteristics is to my opinion still a legitimate and effective method, if practised professionaly, occasionally, under strict conditions

The thing is that there is no definitive notion of "linebreeding" or "inbreeding" - linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. And being that Rep is pretty solidly represented in almost every living CsV today, meaning all dogs are to some degree related to one another, 'inbreeding' is in fact still applicable. It's a term of relativity.

As I understand from US usage, "outcrossing" in the dog world means to breed to a dog of the same breed, from relatively unrelated lines. This is what I mean by saying this is not always the best breeding choice. Genetic diversity is important but must be weighed with all other factors as well.

As I have not so much experience with CsV so far, and only with other breeds, I can only say that some breeders who spend years, maybe decades, establishing "their line" find the use of an outcross - in some breed circles established as under ~%6 COI in 10 generations - risky in that it may dilute the traits in their lines and give puppies with unpredictable characteristics. Of course it is done, but only as carefully as tight linebreeding, too. Outcrossing doesn't fix everything, it helps some things, just like linebreeding doesn't fix everything, but helps some things.

Perhaps in a breed with a larger genetic pool, this is acceptable. But perhaps not, for, say CsV, you are right.

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

Name CSV & % of Rep in COI (8 generations)
Edy od Buližníku 3,71%
Art Vlčí sen 4,22%
Urio du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Typhon du Clos des Deux Sapins 4,38%
Amarok Šedý chlup 4,60%

Very interesting! Thanks for posting these!

[wolfin]

outcrossin used when in line who breeder have want put new dogs blood ( genes) later this 1 generation better breed back in linebreeding or inbreeding ( better when have III-IV generation. Later this dog if necesary can used to others outcros and moore moore moore- in all genetics and breeding book are this same information, only mas used this

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by wolfin

outcrossin used when in line who breeder have want put new dogs blood ( genes) later this 1 generation better breed back in linebreeding or inbreeding ( better when have III-IV generation. Later this dog if necesary can used to others outcros and moore moore moore- in all genetics and breeding book are this same information, only mas used this

Thank you for the generational view on outcrossing and linebreeding!! It's something I overlooked but certainly makes a lot of sense.