4 wolves used in breed development

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

No not really, to be honest I never bothered. But having raised wolves and having talked about this during the Mutara times and before with Erik Zimen who did the same bilogical experiment with poodles and dogs, I think they took these wolves because they simply have been available for them .It is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog that have not been raised together as it is with two dogs. So I think, like with the Mutara´s parents, they just happend to be there in this combinations.

Ina

[Priska182]

Thank you Ina
But... Did its mean all the first hybrides (F1) from Brita who had no Owner (like this one http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1287) as been finally put down???
It's really an interesting thread
Regards,

[Hanka]

In army was very strict selection, as Ina wrote here. Only a few best hybrids with best working character was used for next breeding. Other dogs............
It can be problem for people, which will want now create new bloodline. In past was used from 1 litter maybe 2 pups. But now if we will have litter of hybrids, every owner will want use his own hybrid for next breeding. Bad dogs too. It is nothing good for breed.
For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population.....
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.

I fully agree with Hanka, though neither am I involved in breeding, nor intend to be.

Having read about training methods and selection procedures in PS Kennel I cannot imagine it feasible to reconstruct "military approach" at present and in civilian conditions.
Who today:
1. would provide funding of a few hrs daily standardized training for pups and dogs in one place for several years? (including fees for scientists, costs of health testing, wages for trainers and for dog handlers/leaders from the same area willing to work with dogs most of their time?)

2. would take decisions to eutanize pups/hybrids that would not pass exteremely tough working/tracking tests and... carry out these decisions ? BTW how should the character vs. appearance vs. health dilemma be solved? In PS dog appearance was not taken under consideration at all, but I'm afraid it would be the main selection criterion today

3. would agree to have his/her beautiful and loveable dog (hybrid?) eutanized (or even just sterelized), only because he/she would not have passed the working/tracking/trailing tests? etc. etc.

4. If having a very detailed breed standard available, the csv community among themselves cannot agree about simple bonitation standards , and the judges conduct them not always fairly (), who would be able to decide which dogs/hybrids should remain in breeding and which should be withdrawn? Is there an internationally charismatic character among CSV judges/lovers/breedres (?) approved by Slovakian Breeding Commitee (responsilble for the breed in FCI), who could be granted the role of "CSV God"? Would all respect and trust him (them?) enough as not to question his/their decisions? Mutaragate should be a clear warning how an "amateur" experiment may end in not well prepared, widely approved and carried out fairly, openly and under scientific supervision.

5. And last but not least: adding fresh wolf blood into the CSV breed would mean that in some countries csv would be authomatically banned and in some others would have less chance to be legalized. Can the breed afford such step at the present stage of development?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I fully agree with both Hanka and of course Rona.
In comparison, much more dogs were killed rather than used for breeding and establishing the "new breed".
Which nowadays ought to make it impossible for ethical reasons, bringing in"new wolf blood".
Living with European wolves and knowing quite a few F1-crosses, I honestly can say you don't really want these animals as pets once they're adult...
Unfortunately there are a few psychos around who want exactly this.
But that's another story...

Originally Posted by Rona

5. And last but not least: adding fresh wolf blood into the CSV breed would mean that in some countries csv would be authomatically banned and in some others would have less chance to be legalized. Can the breed afford such step at the present stage of development?

Rona, there is already fresh wolf blood added into the CSV breed in recent years.
And it continues!
And I don't speak of the "Mutaras" or only one mix or litter.
They have normal FCI pedigrees though false parents or at least fathers named.
Have a look in the database or litters.

Cheers,
Michael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Living with European wolves and knowing quite a few F1-crosses, I honestly can say you don't really want these animals as pets once they're adult...

This was exactly Hanka's and my point! Lack of tough selection in the "exeperiment" would ruin the breed character development. CSV are manageable dogs due to the fact that so many of their kins were exterminated. We owe the breed, as it is today, to enormous sufferings of dogs and people! When planning litters every decent breeder should bear in mind he/she is in the first place a 'breed warden'; not only a "producer of nice puppies" or a pup trader!

I sometimes feel it's a pity there is no selection for good, ethical breeders

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Rona, there is already fresh wolf blood added into the CSV breed in recent years.(...)
They have normal FCI pedigrees though false parents or at least fathers named.
Have a look in the database or litters.

I know, but this is just cheating! Owners, who happen to buy hybrid instead of CSVs pups would probably have problems if they wanted to keep them indoors, but this only means they were careless or naive when choosing a kennel and litter.

What I meant was an official, but badly prepared, carelessly organized and irresponsibly carried out "wolfblood insertion" into the breed. Which would probably be the case without very solid funding, broad international coorperation, scientific and veterinary support, contingency plans if something went wrong, shelters for hybrids excluded from breeding and ... masses of trust and goodwill from all interested. The last aspect being probably most difficult of them all.

[yukidomari]

Just a few points -

At least to my knowledge, 'culling' of breeding stock today doesn't always have to equate to the older use of euthanasia. Rather, the dog is simply neutered/spayed and 'removed' that way from genetic contributions. 'Regular' breeders today use sterilization as a form of culling.

This thread was not meant to say that there should be new wolf blood, and given the replies here, I totally agree that it would make recognition or further acceptance difficult if not impossible. And that there wouldn't be an ethical way to go about this nowadays, not that I agree it was ethical 'back then', either.

But if necessary, the inclusion of new blood doesn't have to come through neither wolf nor German Shepherd Dog. There have been back-cross projects in Dalmatians and Boxers alike that utilized breeds not originally linked to their foundation, including Pointers (for the Dalmatian project to 'solve' the uric acid problem) and Corgis (in the Boxer backcross natural bob-tail project by geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach). Dr. Cattanach's Boxers are now KC/FCI registrable and within about 5 generations you (and KC judges of breed) could not tell either temperamentally nor physically that his Boxers were 'mixed', so to speak.

Genetics is awfully fascinating, isn't it?

But now I am off-topic. Thank you for all the replies on the original wolves!

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Hanka

For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population.....
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.

It is unfortunately true ....

[Sona_Bognarova]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

It is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog that have not been raised together as it is with two dogs. So I think, like with the Mutara´s parents, they just happend to be there in this combinations.

Ina

Exactly, it is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog, so I tend to believe that lovely story how they let Brita the wolf choose her partner herself, from many GSD studs there and that it was the only one not scared of her but behaving like a dominant male! It is just a story though....
Another fact is that the primary reason for crossbreeding wolf and GSD at the beginning was the improvement of health and endurance of working dogs, especially GSD, creating the new breed came second...