Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor --- Killed by Wilczy Duch kennel?!

[hanninadina]

Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.

he are "NON FCI" not "MIX".

in forum are thema about this - read explanation from admin.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Can somebody explain me, why he is now "non FCI (Mix)"?

Both parents are fci. I know that sometimes ago, the parents were other names, the female I think was it.

It was a mistake corrected by Admin.

The parents were FCI but were highly inbred, very young and without breeding rights when the pups were born. Later one of them recieved P14 on bonitation, so the litter could not have been registered officialy in Slovakia. Wilk was the only pup that survived from the whole litter. There was an attempt to register his pedigree in Italy, but it seems it was never completed, thus the dog is non-FCI in the database.

In the light of the conversation about Iran Z.O. (one of the dogs least connected with Rep) Wilk would have been even more valuable for breeding. Iran is/was? his double grandfather.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

In the light of the conversation about Iran Z.O. (one of the dogs least connected with Rep) Wilk would have been even more valuable for breeding. Iran is/was? his double grandfather.

Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by saschia

Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?

OK. You're right, he wouldn't. I'm not a breeder and agree with all what breeders tell me.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by saschia

Would he? He was born from the accidental (and I really hope it was accidental, for the breeder's sake) mating of half-siblings, both before bonitation age. Would we want to do the same that was done with Rep, but without the causes, and without the benefits that Rep brought to the breed?

And because both parents were without bonitation at that age that a dog like Wilk must be not used, and if he get lost, well no one cares, after all the parents had no bonitation and he come from a INBREEDING (such horrible word).
No one cares if he would be great to open lines, without lost wolfish features, thing that Slovak club already tried by using Czech dogs and so far I know it mostly wasn't a good experience.

Originally Posted by Elf

Exactly, Wilk/Hamlet --- Radov Dvor--- would be a very interesting dog for diversity, he is in the top O,8% living CSV regarding mean kinship.

Well, no one cares for it, both parents had no bonitation and that's all.
Besides, who cares for genetic?

[saschia]

Paula, it is not because the parents did not have bonitation only. It is because it was a very bad breaking of a lot of rules, it was because it was hushed up till the last minute by the breeder, it is because it was brother and sister, where the brother was a pup still and so we couldn't even know what defects he will have (and he grew up to have many), and if we would give papers to such puppies than I really don't know why not give papers to everything that has four legs and says Woof.

I don't know why a lot of people here make some kind of half-god from Hron RD. First thing - if you really want to breed with him, there is a way. Second thing - he has a sister who passed a bonitation and other things and can have legal puppies, and she is the same blood. The Y chromosome doesn't carry anything that important...

Inbreeding is not a horrible word, after all, all the CSWs are inbred in their ancestry, but is is horrible to say it doesn't matter that this puppy is an inbred accident but he should get papers because he is a SON OF HRON RD.

[buidelwolf]

Paula (Nebulosa), I care for genetics and I have to agree with you. From a genetic point of view Wilk/Hamlet is most certainly very special; through advancing insight and despite the fact that several rules were broken. He's inbred from a very uncommon line, with a extremely auspicious position in the Mean Kinship ranking (he's in the top O,8% living CSV regarding MK). That makes him theoretically very useful to maintain the (ever narrowing) gene pool.

Descendants of many hypothetical breeding combinations with him, will know a low COI, very below average (measured on all generations). Almost impossible to achieve nowadays with other Csv's. All this, of course, except for possible genetic defects present, which certainly should be considered.

The comparison with Rep is not correct: Rep caused a massive inbreeding in all lines in a very early stage of the development of the breed, with a sharp reduction of the gene pool as a result. Wilk/Hamlet however, might just be itself highly inbred, but at the same time can give a very positive contribution to the fragile gene pool as it evolved nowadays almost 30 years after Rep; that makes it significant different. The possible use of him could almost be regarded as a kind of outcrossing, which is very special to mention in the closed population.

I think he's breath taking from the pictures. Most importantly however, is that I hope he currently has a good home, wherever he may be. All together, I have my doubts about that .... Especially since the last owner wraps in silence, while she too is the subject of speculations.

Regards

[saschia]

buidelwolf, I cannot agree with you. I agree that higly inbred animals from some relatively Rep-free lines might be very valuable for breeding, although there may be some arguments against this particular line, but I am not going into that. My argument is not that such animal is not correct to use, my argument is that it is incorrect to use Hamlet. Why? For the same reason why it was incorrect to try to introduce new wolf blood to CSW through Mutaras. This is a thing that requires planning, and selection of the animals to use to create such inbred studs. And that was missing from both Hamlet and Mutaras. It is still possible to create inbreds, even from the same animal, in better conditions, but at least now we will know about what we are bringing into the population, not a complete unknown as Hron was when he mated his sister. Now we at least know that he has bad legs, long tail, darker eye (the tail and eye are of course minor) and bad character (and don't argue about upbringing, his sister Hena had the same conditions but was able to pass the bonitation on the same day as Hron was not) and we can, if we decide to, use a bitch that would compensate.

I too wish Hamlet good home, after all, the quality of the home should not depend on the papers, but I cannot agree that he was supposed to obtain the papers just because of his lineage.