DM Testresults

[Rona]

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections. Mainly some of our "moralists" question the ethical condition of breeders who have yet not tested their dogs.... They are right: responsible breeders and rep owners should test their dogs against all possible diseases and health hazards. But there is one catch - money!
Each of these tests isn't extremely expensive (maybe excpet Dwarf), but adding up costs of several tests and multiplying it by the number of owned dogs makes quite a lump sum.

Paradoxically, the so-called "ethical breeders", who invest in good dog food, suitable conditions, medical care, dog shows, training, socialising etc. of their dogs are in a worse position, because making all the tests would mean less means for other 'dog expenses', not to mention family needs, kids education, holidays etc. It's obvious that hardly anyone has unlimited financial resources...
One of the solution could be to include the test costs in puppy prices. However, in the light of many litters available and the fact that good breeders do not sell CSV to anybody but try to select suitable homes (not necessarily the richest ones - see the discussion about puppy prices!), makes this solution not very practical.

So we have on the one hand puppy mills where the owners could probably afford doing the tests, but don't care very much about their dogs/pups health, and on the other - devoted breeders who sometimes would want to test their dogs, but jus can't afford and plan to do the tests gradually...

One may say: if somebody does not have money for testing his/her dogs he shouldn't breed at all. True. But if people stop breeding, many of them would have even less means for testing the dogs. It looks like a vicious circle. The tests have been available for very short time; as Mijke wrote in another thread - any change needs time, education, discussion of side effects, etc.

So maybe instead of blaming people for not testing their dogs, spreading rumours about the results, publishing results of other people's dogs, asking questions: "have you tested your dogs yet?", making owners/breeders feel guilty, etc. etc. we could just assume common goodwill. Lets take that caring, ethical breeders have tested their dogs, intend to test their dogs and will test their dogs at the earliest time feasible for them. I'm sure people will not object to publishing the test results if nobody will use them against them, their animals and their kennels.

By attacking others (even indirectly and with best intentions) nothing is achieved! People will only close themselves and hide the results, which is just the opposite from what is best for the breed.

And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections.

As always - I can only agree with you.
Yes, these "once in life" tests are important, but when you count the costs of blood and urine tests to check if a female is really strong and healthy before she is even on heat, all the estrogen/progesteron tests (we know wolfdogs may need more than "normal" breeds ), traveling to male and other costs, one pays for every litter every time a female is mated... The puppies are golden So it is normal that people might want to save some money for additional tests, like DM, Dwarf or, still nobody speaks about how important they are (or aren't???), PRA and other eye tests

[Tatti]

For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.

Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

And who now says but that is an old dog cant be an owner of a TWD.

My own dog Hogan sky is an carrier of DM and I will make sure he's never bread with an untested bitch.

Gr
Tatiana

[Enid Black]

Hi Tatti,
Just for exactness' of terminology sake, a Carrier (DM/N) can't get ill. An Affected (DM/DM) as Falco (and his brother Forrest here in Italy ) sadly indeed can.
Anyway... the more dogs we test the more we'll know about the spreading of the illness...

[Tatti]

Originally Posted by Enid Black

Hi Tatti,
Just for exactness' of terminology sake, a Carrier (DM/N) can't get ill. An Affected (DM/DM) as Falco (and his brother Forrest here in Italy ) sadly indeed can.

Ok sry i did wright it wrong, English isn't my favorite language

Originally Posted by Enid Black

Anyway... the more dog we test the more we'll know about the spreading of the illness...

I totally agree

Gr
Tatiana

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him

Very wise words.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by saschia

Very wise words.

I would say true, very wise and also farmerswisdom, and miss the point that is being made..specially we do not know what other diseases our dogs might carry i only see more reasons for testing and being open about those we do know about and being more carefull abou he combinations we make...

but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?

[elf]

In the document Understanding and Applying ThE Genetic Test for Degenerative Myelopathy there is an interesting stat:

"For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM."

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by elf

In the document Understanding and Applying ThE Genetic Test for Degenerative Myelopathy there is an interesting stat:

"For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM."

I think it is exactly what we can observe by our breed... Only small percentage gets ill.
What would be also interesting is the age when the 0.83% get ill...

=======
I'm not for ignoring the DM problem - because it is really important to make bigger reseach and to test as much dogs as possible... But the whole "DM panic" started by some breeders is really without sense.

Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...
So there must be also some kind of much more "dangerous" "illness" that DM...

At the moment some breeders went crazy for DM tests and there are already some which decided not to use DM-carriers but took "DM clear" dogs from... the "bad walking" lines.
So for sure their puppies will not have DM problems at the age of 10, 11, 12... 15 years. But it is very possible they get problems already at the age of 2 years.... (because of the hip problems which are not diagnosed now)...

[woland77]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I think it is exactly what we can observe by our breed... Only small percentage gets ill.
What would be also interesting is the age when the 0.83% get ill...

=======
I'm not for ignoring the DM problem - because it is really important to make bigger reseach and to test as much dogs as possible... But the whole "DM panic" started by some breeders is really without sense.

Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...
So there must be also some kind of much more "dangerous" "illness" that DM...

At the moment some breeders went crazy for DM tests and there are already some which decided not to use DM-carriers but took "DM clear" dogs from... the "bad walking" lines.
So for sure their puppies will not have DM problems at the age of 10, 11, 12... 15 years. But it is very possible they get problems already at the age of 2 years.... (because of the hip problems which are not diagnosed now)...

I think is important DM regarded as a disease and DM test result because we have some important scientific certainty, even if full knowledge of the disorder is still far, even if the risk and the incidence appears to be low.
Similarly, the panic does not make sense. But this panic can rule only where there is lack of knowledge, all you need to know for a clear and thorough knowledge of DM can be easily found. In Italy was held a meeting with Dr Gandini, a leading veterinary neurologists in Europe, which is contact and follows the staff of Professor Coates that has discovered the gene SOD1 and developed the test.

It states that there are more serious problems before considering the DM (and I'm not doubting that there are) talking about alleged problems of movement, in unspeakable blood lines, I find it not very scientific and serious.
This problem is a disease or a problem due to poor physical construction? What would be the dogs with? I'm always interested in health problems and all information that may contribute to genetic improvement of the breed.

Could you open a thread, and in addition to a serious research (as did Mijke for DM) about this problem?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by nanouk

but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?

I suspect that our late Tina might have developed DM at the age of 13,5. She died at 14, but during the last few months she had problems with walking and they seemed non-orthopeadic. We X-rayed her and her bones and joints were in suprisingly good condition! Two independent vets said the symptoms looked as if coming from the nervous system. We haven't tested her for DM obviously, but when reading about the disease I realized several symptoms seemed familiar. We carried Tina up and down stairs in the last month but she was able to walk weakly and slowly until her death.

At the age of 13 she was running and jumping, but apparently suffered when walking upstairs.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by Rona

I suspect that our late Tina might have developed DM at the age of 13,5. She died at 14, but during the last few months she had problems with walking and they seemed non-orthopeadic. We X-rayed her and her bones and joints were in suprisingly good condition! Two independent vets said the symptoms looked as if coming from the nervous system. We haven't tested her for DM obviously, but when reading about the disease I realized several symptoms seemed familiar. We carried Tina up and down stairs in the last month but she was able to walk weakly and slowly until her death.

At the age of 13 she was running and jumping, but apparently suffered when walking upstairs.

interesting! Was she used for breeding and has her offspring been tested? (if she was dm/dm her offspring would all be at least be carrier consequently)
*edit, not meant as to label any offspring, just cause i have seen dogs that suffer from the disease and have been put to sleep because of it at an unfair early age and since i first heard of it several yrs ago, the information and research has been intensified and new info seems to get out daily, i am very interested

[Rona]

Originally Posted by nanouk

interesting! Was she used for breeding

No, she wasn't. She had no pedigree nor breeding rights and we knew nothing about her origins. We found her as a puppy in a park http://wolfdog.org/eng/articles/1268.html
PS. When Tina fell ill, she had her blood tested several times and she had no traces of tumour or other cancer. Her detailed blood test results were always perfect or close to perfect.