czw puppy

[Rush]

And about alpha roll..i use it only for hard corrections if "no!" doesnt work and other soft corrections dont work too..as in such attack or too rough playing when over excited ..for example on walks he would start hunting my pants and biting ..but usually i dont need any force and doesnt happen often.. And i learn all the time, read as much i can, i started few months before he was born and planned..The problem is just that most websites offers same info, short and not so much needed..Also i started socialization immediately from next day he was brought home.. And aggresion as i was talking is rare too..i think he also understood what he did when i showed him my finger with little blood and he looked kinda sorry, he was then gentle, smelled it and licked it..he wouldnt bite it again at that point.. Now tell me about how you teach them not to hunt? He was up to some ducks last time..breeder said if of leash i should run and hide, or correct him if leashed.. What methods you use?

[vila]

Hello,

če sem prav razumela Rush si iz Slovenije. Tudi jaz imam prvič czw in sicer samičko staro 4,5 mesecev. Kar opisuješ mi je zelo znano, od prvega dne ko smo jo pripeljali domov je njena igra "agresivna". Vse nas je že močno pogrizla,
probali smo že kar nekaj metod, pa je vsaka prvič delovala, čez par dni pa ni več delovalo, kot bi postala "odporna". Zdaj jo primemo za zgornjo čeljust da jo malo zaboli in rečemo NE. Zelo je vztrajna z zobmi ko hoče od nas izsiliti igro.
Drugače je pa krasna, vedno je vesela kužkov in ljudi na sprehodu, vsem se pusti božati, z drugimi kužki se krasno razume. Do mlajših majhnih kužkov je izredno prijazna in zelo nežna. Z nami pa vedno znova preizkuša meje.
Pa še glede vaje "skrivanje" je res super, tako veselje ko me najde.
Na sprehodu jo dostikrat spustimo s povodca, ko sreča kakega kužka se jo ne da priklicati, tako da začnem teči sama naprej in ko ugotovi da me ni takoj pride za mano.
Vesela sem da je še kdo iz slo na tem forumu,
pa če imaš kak nasvet ali vprašanje kar napiši.

Eva

[Rush]

Zdravo Eva,

Z agresivnostjo nisem mislil na igro, to grize vedno v igri in tako, kar sem mislil je bil pravi napad, močno renčanje, močen ugriz do krvi..Kar sicer ni pogosto..
Vzrediteljca mi je rekla da mu morem dat klofuto v tem primeru, in vedno zmagat, saj se zavedam da ko bo odrastel ne bom več močnejši od njega, zato morm to zdaj zrihtat..S kje pa si? Vem da je v naših koncih ena samička, Radovljica..
Nebi bilo slabo da bi se enkrat dobili da se igrata..

Lep pozdrav,
Matevž

[Rush]

Two picture of my czw pup..Hope i uploaded it right.. :-)

[yukidomari]

Hello! Congrats on your new puppy!

'now tell me about how you teach them not to hunt? He was up to some ducks last time..breeder said if of leash i should run and hide, or correct him if leashed.. What methods you use?'

If I knew my dog would run off after animals, then I will not let him or her off leash until we have proofed a good ' leave it' command. But of course it takes a long time, and even then some dogs' prey drive is too strong to teach an infallible ' leave it' to, and those dogs just cannot be off leash then.. I have a dog like that so she is never off leash.

[Rush]

Well becouse of such reasons i try to have him off-leash as much as posibble, so he will learn that he can freely run few meters from me or beside me if he is good with that and so he wouldn't run away..Becouse in my opinion if i would have him leashed all the time and then i would try to have him off-leash he might get that as: "I'm free to do anything i want now"..I'm not experienced but just my opinon..
So i try to have him unleashed and control and correct him when needed..So that he would know that even if he is free of leash there are still limits..
Maybe i think wrong, but i will see it trought time..
Also at home, i'm starting to leave him alone on yard for few minutes and give him praise when i come back..
Anyway as he is puppy he is afraid to be alone(Thats reason for hunting-run away). And it's always true, he never goes far, he always follows..And i hope i can teach him to keep that behavior even when he grows up..

Thanks for help
Matevž

[Tassle]

It is always best when training dogs to try and set them up to get things right.

Often if you train with punishment based methods, the punishments have to become increasingly more severe as the dog get the rewards from life.

I would start (as another person mentioned) teaching a leave it command on low value items, moving towards higher value as he learns the command better.

I have sometimes used a trail lead (with harness) to allow the dog freedom without restraint, but allowing me to retain control and prevent the dog from gaining any reward (in this situation, a chase) from the environment.

I used this with my CsVx when he was younger to teach him to ignore Sheep. It is still a work in progress and I would NEVER trust him off lead around them, but he can quite happily ignore their presence now.

[yukidomari]

Well at eight weeks, your pup doesn't have a fully developed prey drive anyway. But it would be dangerous for me to let a developing adolescent dog who hadn't been proofed off leash.. He could get hit by a car or shot for harassing wild life here. But, that's here, and may not apply to you. Good luck with your training.

[Rush]

It's all true about cars, so as i said i have to control him all the time, keep an eye on him, also other dangerous things out there, but i doubt for being shot, especially as he is puppy..If you mean it in woods or so..

[Rush]

If i would go to the city where there is lots of traffic, or walking on road where there is many cars i would have him on leash..Mostly what i meant with as much as posibble to have him off-leash i meant in woods, fields and where not many cars and dangerous object would be.. :-)

[Shadowlands]

I don't know how it is in Slovenia, but here in Bulgaria there is still a bounty on wolves so we never go into the forest at the weekend when the hunters are around. They would shoot first, ask questions later (like 'Why was that wolf wearing a bright red collar?').

We go daily to the fields and down into the valley to the river but I always make sure it is late in the evening when all of the livestock is back home. Occassionally we will meet some shepherd with goats or cows or something but they are always the ones who are nervous of Shadow even though she has never done anything to deserve this as she is good and comes when called.

As yukidomari says, it is vital to have a rock solid 'leave' and 'come' response before you let them off lead. Shadow was exactly like your pup when she was small (our neighbours used to tease me about it and ask if she went further than 10m away on her walk) but, believe me, that will soon change!

[Rush]

well, about wolfs its no problem here, there are in one part of country but not here.. Yes i know it will soon change about walking near me, but until then im trying to make him understand he does it right this way.. But im also training come all the time..for leave it i just use no..is that not good?

[Rush]

What kind of punishment did you talk about now Tassle?

[Tassle]

I apologise for the two responses.

I was talking about this

And about alpha roll..i use it only for hard corrections if "no!" doesnt work and other soft corrections

It is not a method I agree with I'm afraid, people trying to behave like other dogs does not work IME. We cannot hope to recreate what any dog will do to another due to the interactions between them we are not aware of and the body language that we cannot hope to recreate (Physical differences)

I understand some behaviours have to be stopped, chewing dangerous items for example. In this instance I tend to use distraction or diversion, and then set the situation up so the puppy cannot do the action again or does not want to.

One of the worst things you can do to your dog is ignore him, so separation periods can be useful. Puppies do not like being separated, so if the puppy is biting or getting too over the top, I will remove myself form the situation or remove th puppy. Often these occur when the puppy is over tired and they do not know how to switch off. These times can often be predicted, (later evenings or after meals) and so you can be prepared to give the puppy a better way of releasing the tension. Having a special chew or toy to chew that is only produced at these times.

I am aware that dog training methods vary in different countries. These are my own views based on my own training and experience as a trainer.

[Rush]

Aha ok thanks..I see that methods from one to another are pretty different, my breeder is also qualified trainer and her approach is a bit different.. Well i cant walk away if i talk about biting on my backyard because he would probably go on something else and forget bout me for some time(no effect?)..As i say i try to avoid physical corrections.. Last times when he goes on unappropriate items or cats food i just turn his head away and say no so i redirect attention..and it works..just i feel about alpha roll is needed when i cant do better to let him know NOW as puppy who is on top..Its ok then after 5sec he is calm, but sometimes could be half a minute or so needed..And i dont do it just for normal biting, but hard, snarling biting..but as i said im avoiding such approches as i can.. Feel free to correct me

[Rush]

Well also turning his head away is physical but doesnt bother him neither me, i find it best method for now..in that cases i said..Oh and also ofcourse when he bites me i put one of his toy in his mouth instead and show him that is right..if that works its no need to ignore him..And pretty often it does..But you said when he is tired..as i see he bites mostly of being overexcited not tired After all he is better and better every day, alltrough he bite me in my lips yesterday for welcome home, but was excited biting and jumping..no problem, just need to teach him to be calmer at such situations.. :-) Thanks for all your time and help guys..

[Rona]

To Tassle: I find your comments very logical

I think with CSV it's worth trying various methods, because the dogs vary from each other a lot. What works with one, does not necessarily work woth another. That's why following blindly somebody else's advice (even the best!) may not be always the best idea.

For bringing up a vlcak, I wouldn't even use the word "training" but rather "devloping communication patterns". Any methods (even the most crazy ones) are OK as long as they're efficient and do not destroy the owner's relationship with the animal.

I remember at some point my pup was biting me (and other members of the family) when coming back from walks. She used to jump on our sleeves and tear them, sometims in the middle of the street! I interperted her behaviour as calling "I don't want to go home yet! I want to go on playing with my friends".
I understood her messgage, but had to inform her that such behaviour would not be accepted. I took a leash with a steel thread inside (for her safety), and the moment she started biting, I tied her to the nearest solid item (a pole, a bench, once even a church door ) and walked on about 10-20 meters without her, while she could see me all the time. Then I stopped and watched her for a couple of minutes, returned, untied and we went on together. When she was walking nicely - I was giving her treats when started biting again- I repeated the whole process. Sometimes it took us an hour instead of 10 minutes to get back home, but in the end it worked - she understood what I wanted her to understand.

I'm not saying this method would work with every vlcak, but that in most cases it's possible to find a way to pass the information to the dog efficiently. It's just the matter of imagination and non-conventional "tailored" thinking based on the observation of a particluar dog.

It's true that separation works, but for the CSV pup it's one of the most severe punishment, so it has to be used with great caution, as it might impede the relationship. We used it only for the "worst crimes" and only for short periods of time (from 3-5 minutes to half an hrs when she was older). Besides the difficulty with separation is that the dogs must never be let out when howling (it would be a reward for howling )

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Rona

To Tassle: I find your comments very logical

I think with CSV it's worth trying various methods, because the dogs vary from each other a lot. What works with one, does not necessarily work woth another. That's why following blindly somebody else's advice (even the best!) may not be always the best idea.

For bringing up a vlcak, I wouldn't even use the word "training" but rather "devloping communication patterns". Any methods (even the most crazy ones) are OK as long as they're efficient and do not destroy the owner's relationship with the animal.

I remember at some point my pup was biting me (and other members of the family) when coming back from walks. She used to jump on our sleeves and tear them, sometims in the middle of the street! I interperted her behaviour as calling "I don't want to go home yet! I want to go on playing with my friends".
I understood her messgage, but had to inform her that such behaviour would not be accepted. I took a leash with a steel thread inside (for her safety), and the moment she started biting, I tied her to the nearest solid item (a pole, a bench, once even a church door ) and walked on about 10-20 meters without her, while she could see me all the time. Then I stopped and watched her for a couple of minutes, returned, untied and we went on together. When she was walking nicely - I was giving her treats when started biting again- I repeated the whole process. Sometimes it took us an hour instead of 10 minutes to get back home, but in the end it worked - she understood what I wanted her to understand.

I'm not saying this method would work with every vlcak, but that in most cases it's possible to find a way to pass the information to the dog efficiently. It's just the matter of imagination and non-conventional "tailored" thinking based on the observation of a particluar dog.

It's true that separation works, but for the CSV pup it's one of the most severe punishment, so it has to be used with great caution, as it might impede the relationship. We used it only for the "worst crimes" and only for short periods of time (from 3-5 minutes to half an hrs when she was older). Besides the difficulty with separation is that the dogs must never be let out when howling (it would be a reward for howling )

Very good post.

I always say to Puppy owners Separation is the worst form of Punishment you can give. (to which they often look at me as if I am mad!) Dogs are social animals, and to deprive them of that, even for a short time can be very distressing for them.

Rush - One main reason I try and steer clear of the 'Alpha roll' is due to the puppy learning to fight back. I never want to teach my puppy to get into a battle of physical force because I know (as they get older) if they wanted to, they would win.

I have sadly known a few dogs who have been pts after the owners tried these methods, the dogs went into 'freeze' mode and the owners, thinking the dogs had 'calmed' allowed the dog up, only to be severely bitten.

[yukidomari]

In my personal observation of "alpha rolls", only puppies are sometimes forcibly "rolled" by siblings and perhaps the mother and nobody is worse off.

When adults, when I observe rolls, often times it is without physical force - in this case I mean that the dog already recognizes the status of some other dog or some other human. For example, my 3 year old female will roll herself when my 13 year old male is upset with her, without him touching her at all. And when my boyfriend is very upset with the dogs sometimes, they will roll over by themselves.. But we have never rolled the dogs as a method of punishment or to teach them anything.. they do this out of instinct.

However, on the other hand when I see forcible rolls, like sometimes in the dog park between stranger dogs, oftentimes fights will break out.

Because as Tassle said, I don't wish to get into a physical fight with my dogs, I avoid rolling them because I feel that there are alternative, non-physical methods of training for the same goal.

If I wanted to simulate some idea of "how a dog pack works", then I accept that when a dog is forcibly rolled, it can respond by biting or fighting back, as that is what I observe between dogs.

That's just my opinion.

[Rush]

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult too risky