Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[elf]

Originally Posted by Dayen

Those are very heavy accusations.

Well, I did not write accusations but deductions, the facts are:

- Thalia x Sibir gave some red puppies (Saarloos alike)
- DNA tests tells Thalia x Sibir are the parents
- From what I know both parents have to be carriers, so finally hundred of dogs may be involved worldwide

[saschia]

The question of parentage seems to be very important now - it is possible to find out if Galiba really is father of Sibir, but even more important - and harder to find out - is whether parnts of Thalia are the ones that are declared. Thalia and Galiba should have the same father. And there are a lot of offspring of Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora. It is hard, but genetic tests should be able to at least show, if it is possible for two dogs to be half-siblings.

Either way, birth of such red pups from supposedly purebred mating is a grave matter and brings issues such as parentage testing to new levels of importance.

[Dayen]

Purely in theoretic part, since we never seen brown CSW before.
Carriers of brown color are quite easy to find by DNA test. Maybe it could help to consider this:

Brown dog (bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are born black pigmented and all are carriers of brown gene (Bb).

Black pigmented dog with brown gene (Bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are black pigmented, some puppies are carriers of brown gene (Bb), some not (BB).

Bb + Bb = 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

[saschia]

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

[Dayen]

Saschia, I don't know. This whole situation is weird.
I've never seen brown European Wolf, CSW or German Shepherd. That indicates CSWs are BB.

Maybe there is some exception for brown/red sable as for example I know the exception for two black&tans to sometimes have puppy with different colour. So I could be wrong.
But system really works so simple for solid brown colour/pigmentation, as far as I've seen with my other breed.
Maybe I'm doing too big jump from solid to sable colour, but I'm sure about solid color and pigmentation should go with it.

[jefta]

Originally Posted by saschia

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

This is so easy and universal for all dogs Test is avalible. I cant link here but for example in DDC VETERINARY test for one locus (we are intrested in one locus- "B") cost 58 $

[yukidomari]

Martiou, is the photo you posted a photo of the actual dogs in question, or just two red Saarloos to show the color?

[saschia]

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.

B Locus (DNA markers tested – S41C, P345Pel, Q331X)
Associated with the presence of chocolate (also commonly referred to as liver or brown). The bb genotype usually results in a chocolate coat phenotype and liver noses among yellow dogs.

How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

OK, I was mistaken about the funding, apparently.

[jefta]

Agouti is determinated by different locus "Aw"

csv are AwAwBB, this dogs are AwAwbb

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by saschia

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.


How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

There are two different types of pigmentation; eumelanin (black/--> blue or brown) and pheomelanin (red/cream). The gene (bb) that causes black pigmentation to turn into brown (liver), only affects eumelanin. So this basically means that whatever the colour of the dog is, all the normally black areas in it's skin & coat are brown. So if the dog would normally be agouti ("wolf grey"), with genotype bb it will end up looking like the forrest brown Saarloos. Or if a dog would normally be solid black like Labrador, with genotype bb it will turn into solid brown.

Here are two sites that explain it all more spesificly:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net...cs/pigment.htm
and
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/liver.htm

Eumelanin affects skin aswell as hair, but pheomelanin only affects hair.
Some exceptionally reddish wolves do exist, but they always have black skin pigmentation (nose, lips, nails etc), that shows it is only more "pheomelanistic" individual than usual. Here are a couple of pics by photographer Lassi Rautiainen. They are wild Finnish wolves. Wolves of this color are found more frequently in eastern Finland and in Russia.
As you can see, they still have black pigmentation and black hair tips allthough their coat is overall more pheomelanistic.





But whenever a canine has also brown skin pigmentation, it must be genotyped bb.

German Shepherds have brown/liver (bb), allthough it is disqualifying trait due to the standard aswell as white (ee) and blue (dd).
http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html
It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from alot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos.