Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Jennin Lauma]

There seems to be lots of CsV (& SWH) breeders (and buyers) who only care about the wolfy looks; -the wolfier the better, they seem to think, and by any means necessary.
Some of them know wolves, and they know what it is like to live with a wolf/very wolfy wolfdog. But most of them have NO idea, they only have romanticized dreams and lots of falce information.

Falcifying pedigrees in a breed like this is especially dangerous. There are so many possible bad effects on it, starting from the fact that nobody nolonger has any control over the hereditary traits, -most importantly the health & character. -If you do not know who you are truly breeding with, you cannot breed. You only make puppies. You don't know what to expect from the offspring, and everyone can start wiping their ass with the pedigree papers.
But when it comes to breeds like the CsV & SWH that unfortunately are allready banned in some countries together with all wolf x dog crosses in general, it is very, very risky to mix them with hybrids (theoretically incorrect term but I use it here just for clarification); if the public & authorities loose their trust to these breeds' pedigrees and breeding purposes, it will cause trouble. In the best scenario it would only lead into compulsory DNA testing before registration, but in worst case it could lead into more banns.
And if this monkey business with falcifyed pedigrees goes on for too long, there is a risk that these genetically allready small breed populations will get too badly polluted to survive anymore.

There is one thing though that I disagree with Vaiva.

It is - first of all - a working breed, designed to - let's be open - attack people.

First I must note that I am well aware of the origins / histroy of this breed and it's original purpose. But I know wolves and I know dogs, and I know WORKING dogs especially well. And I think nowadays it is (and should be allready) generally admitted that if you want to have better working dogs, you don't mix wolf into the breeding stock. And IF you do, you need very carefull selection and many generations away from the wolf, to get to a point where you have somewhat homogeneous population of potential dogs (and you most certainly will not have high interest in other things such as keeping the wolfy looks). It (crossing wolf into dogs) is not worth the efforts today, if you only have the working abilities in your mind. The dog population in the world is big enough to scoop from, if there is a need to cross breed for better health or wider gene pool for example. For better working abilities you mix ideal DOGS with suitable traits, and you reach your goal alot faster and easier, and you may even truly create better working dogs compared to what there allready is.
When viewing from the working perspective, there is nothing so unique in the wolf that we would need to try to get into dogs to improve their working abilities, and/or what we would not be able to get by mix breeding different dogs. It is vice versa: -wolves do not make good workers for human purposes; for every advantageous trait along comes atleast as many unadvantageous ones that have -for a reason- been selected against in the domestication process of dogs. All the desired traits we see in working canines these days are originally wolf behaviour allright, but strongly modified by human breeding selection, and at this point allready far away from wolf.

So who are we kidding here? If the authorities need top working dogs, they don't buy wolfdogs and though they may have done experiments in the past and crossbred wolves to dogs, the fact is that they lost their interest because they failed for the reasons mentioned above. And if top competitiors search for a new dog to compete with (in any dog sports from schutzhund to agility, sledding or hunting), they don't buy wolfdogs because there are other breeds much more suitable for these sports and much more likely to succeed in their task.
So who we have left? -The people who like to attend dog sports but looks for special challenge? Yeah, maybe some wd buyers are this type. How many in reality?
And the rest? -I'd dare to say that more than 90% of the wd buyers look for nothing more than active companion dog, -and yes, honestly said: a dog with exceptionally wolfy looks compared to any other breed.
In such hands a hard core working dog with high drives is a fiasco; a scandal; an accident awaiting to happen.

So, may I ask a few questions:
For who are these dogs truly bred for these days (now that they are nolonger a military experiment)?
Do we need just another German / Belgian Shepherd? -Is it even a realistic goal?
What are the characteristics the average buyers are hoping for their CsV?
If we think about the best intrests of these dogs, wouldn't it be to breed dogs that fill these hopes; that are most suitable for the main target group ~ (= an avarage buyer)?

Please, be not mistaken;
I am definately NOT saying that because of the romanticized dreams of uneducated wolf -lovers who want to have a pet wolf, we should try to modify the CsV into a Golden Retriever in wolf's clothing. No, no, no!
It is what it is and besides, there is no such thing as a 'wolfdog for the average Joe'. ~Wolfdogs, -whether FCI breeds or hybrids-, are high maintenance canine companions with special needs for their owners. They are active and higly intelligent animals, who should never be taken for purely decorative purposes. They need lots of excercise, socialization and special training, and all that plays a huge role in building a tight bond and good relationship between a wd and it's owner.

But, as it is highly dubious to breed CsV into 'decorative sofa-wolves', is it any more reasonalbe to breed for 'military wolves'?

[Silvester]

Hey Jenni - you have topped even Vaiva´s posting with yours !!

Especially these parts are very true and important for my opinion:

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :
"Falcifying pedigrees in a breed like this is especially dangerous. There are so many possible bad effects on it, starting from the fact that nobody nolonger has any control over the hereditary traits, -most importantly the health & character. -If you do not know who you are truly breeding with, you cannot breed. You only make puppies. You don't know what to expect from the offspring, and everyone can start wiping their ass with the pedigree papers."

Exactly ! That´s also the problem with the "breeding" of American wolfdogs - for they are not really breeded but only produced.

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :
"It (crossing wolf into dogs) is not worth the efforts today, if you only have the working abilities in your mind. The dog population in the world is big enough to scoop from, if there is a need to cross breed for better health or wider gene pool for example."

and

"All the desired traits we see in working canines these days are originally wolf behaviour allright, but strongly modified by human breeding selection, and at this point allready far away from wolf."

Yeah - this is what all real experts say too !

Ok, also to the other parts of this posting I agree completely - this time really 100 % indeed... And I could´nt have told it in better words!

So Jenni - If you congratulated me for the show- result of my dog ....

I much more want to congratulate you here for this posting !

Best regards , Uli alias Silvester

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

First I must note that I am well aware of the origins / histroy of this breed and it's original purpose. But I know wolves and I know dogs, and I know WORKING dogs especially well. And I think nowadays it is (and should be allready) generally admitted that if you want to have better working dogs, you don't mix wolf into the breeding stock. And IF you do, you need very carefull selection and many generations away from the wolf, to get to a point where you have somewhat homogeneous population of potential dogs (and you most certainly will not have high interest in other things such as keeping the wolfy looks). It (crossing wolf into dogs) is not worth the efforts today, if you only have the working abilities in your mind. The dog population in the world is big enough to scoop from, if there is a need to cross breed for better health or wider gene pool for example. For better working abilities you mix ideal DOGS with suitable traits, and you reach your goal alot faster and easier, and you may even truly create better working dogs compared to what there allready is.

Sorry, must be language barrier Yes, we are all here totally aware, that there are much better breeds for IPO, Mondioring or whatever than a wolfdog. What I ment was - wolfdogs are not decorative breeds, it will not be just a nice "wolf" making your garden look better. It has special needs in training, socialisation, everyday work. Yes, they can be agressive, they can be shy, they also know how to bite. We have to remember, that they were really bred (roughly) to attack people, not to hunt, not to bark, not to entertain, not to pull sleds. This requires special knowledge, work and so on, so it is not really a dog who will be "wolfish" in a way many people dream they would be...

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

So, may I ask a few questions:
For who are these dogs truly bred for these days (now that they are nolonger a military experiment)?
Do we need just another German / Belgian Shepherd? -Is it even a realistic goal?
What are the characteristics the average buyers are hoping for their CsV?
If we think about the best intrests of these dogs, wouldn't it be to breed dogs that fill these hopes; that are most suitable for the main target group ~ (= an avarage buyer)?

Throw stones to me, but to be sure I am allways a little bit surprised in so many people with various breeds, teaching their dogs really a police/military work. I am a journalist and I live in a crowded area in a city, why the hell would I need a dog who barks and attacks? I need a universal dog, having good reaction in various unexpected situations, totally brave, nice with children and people, but big and strong enought to make me feel safe late at night, also a dog, who really feels the people, their moods and intends - what a wolfdogs is a master of. Predictable, feeling me well (I mean the dog has also to be able to predict his owner), loyal, no need to dress, wash, comb, no smell - perfect for a small apartment. Doesn't care about the weather - so important when you have summers at +30 degreres, long rainy autumns and winters at -20...

In fact I myself am still in love with the primitives - shikokus, malamuts, huskies, but I chose wolfdog just because they are working breed, in this case more oriented to people, more obedient, easier to train.

The breeding goal should be to keep the wolfdogs the way they are - not turning into GSD, neither shy and scared. As healthy as possible. But this is just my personal amateur position.

[*Satu]

Some people here who writes have a back yard full of hybrids and their dogs in the background are not fully known. On the Internet is easy to shout and make very knowledgeable.

Who will buy a dog breeder who speaks next, "" these races are not diseases, "" they are closer to wolves than other breeds, "the educator says that the wolf a dog can be trained," etc.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Some people here who writes have a back yard full of hybrids and their dogs in the background are not fully known.

But what does this matter if some people own "hybrids" / AWD? If people have "mixes/mutts", so let them! And what does it matter how well they know the background / pedigree of their "mutts"? -Only parents? To 2nd gen? To 3rd? To 6th? What difference does it make for a pet "mutt"?

What is critizised here is falcifying pedigrees of FCI registered breeds. Not every AWD owner automatically make their secret coctails and falcify pedigrees, so I don't see what does this have to do with the subject discussed here.

Originally Posted by *Satu

On the Internet is easy to shout and make very knowledgeable.

Shouting? Hmmm.. I didn't notice anyone -SHOUTING!!!!- here.
Isn't the whole idea of discussion forums to discuss; i.e. to share opinions, information, ideas, etc...? I thought so and actually I think that considering how very flammable subject this is we are discussing here, the conversation has been relatively calm. Everyone here are sharing their opinions and everyone has the right to do so, whether they are breeders, owners or just bystanders/fanciers of the breed who feel they have some thoughts to share.

[*Satu]

And i´m talking about you?

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by *Satu

And i´m talking about you?

?
Whoever you talk about, I'm interested to know:

But what does this matter if some people own "hybrids" / AWD? If people have "mixes/mutts", so let them! And what does it matter how well they know the background / pedigree of their "mutts"? -Only parents? To 2nd gen? To 3rd? To 6th? What difference does it make for a pet "mutt"?

So it would be nice if you could clarify your point in what you wrote before.
I didn't quite catch it.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I chose wolfdog just because they are working breed, in this case more oriented to people, more obedient, easier to train.

The breeding goal should be to keep the wolfdogs the way they are - not turning into GSD, neither shy and scared. As healthy as possible.

I'd just add, that expressions "working" and "training" are very misleading. To some people they mean just training the dogs for official exams (IPO), to others - the dog being able to cooperate with the human in all sorts of activities, sometimes quite unconventional, like historical reconstructions, genuine man trailing, assisting in expeditions, guarding a site, etc. etc.

If we take the 1st meaning - I agree there are more suitable breeds, if the other - vlcaks due to their empathy, may be competitive to other breeds. Given the chance to learn how, vlcaks work by cooperating with humans, not necessarily by blindly obeying them.

[GalomyOak]

I guess I am now "officially" one of those weird competitors who likes to try to "work" with my dog. Obedience and tracking anyways, and now we also are training in some other scent detection work - as a diabetic alert dog. I would hardly consider myself an advanced trainer. A beginner, really!

1. My male Bongo is a certified therapy dog. (Not to be confused with a service dog). His "work" is to visit and be obedient for emotionally disturbed adolescents. Very obedient. He is not social like a Golden Retriever - but he warms up quickly to trust new people, and I can trust him in all situations - parades, running loose with other dogs and animals - more than I could trust many other dogs. We have a good relationship...but mostly he is obedient.

2. Last week, I attended my first AKC obedience competition with my female, Anthea. The competition was indoors, in a huge, loud, metal convention center - thousands of people, hundreds of dogs, bright lights, vendors, ladders. I don't generally like much attention to myself, so I was quite nervous with "stage fright"...but Anthea stayed, for the most part, very focused. She has some female dominance aggression, but she always leaves this behind when she knows we have a task. We took first place last weekend, by a minimum of 17 points - over golden retrievers, labs, terriers...

3. I have a female in Florida that I bred, who at 1.5 years, is being trained as a mobility assistance dog. I know she has had unique challenges with her...but as I understand, she is still doing well.

4. I track and trail (sport) with my dogs. I have had the opportunity now to train with many different breeds...I would trade none for my wolfdogs. Their drive, their endurance, their focus (and ability to refocus) is beautiful to watch. When they are "deep" with their nose in tracking, and they come to a tricky place - they freeze, sometimes with one leg in the air even, and don't move a leg until they know just where they are going. But the trick is to always challenge them - too many short/straight tracks - and they look back like "really? - why? Don't YOU see the sock down there? but c'mon, we will go...in a leisurely fashion." I have trained some protection work with my dogs, but got kind of the same reaction after a bite or two. They got bored with the "game".The real protective instinct has shown itself at more important times, such as strange drunk men approaching me at dark on the beach.

I don't think all CSVs are all cut out for all "work", or even some "work". But to cut them out of being "top dogs" completely, and say it can never be...I don't know if it's right either (though I surely don't want a GSD personality either). I think the biggest thing to own one is to have and open, flexible, FORGIVING!!!! mind - and be willing to work towards greatness at what their strengths are. Mixed breeding, especially with a AWD or Saarloos, or any other mix....surely only adds more variability - and thus unpredictability for untold generations.

[Jennin Lauma]

GalomyOak, concratulations for the results you have gained with your CsV. I think tracking is a great job for wolfdogs.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I don't think all CSVs are all cut out for all "work", or even some "work". But to cut them out of being "top dogs" completely, and say it can never be...I don't know if it's right either (though I surely don't want a GSD personality either). I think the biggest thing to own one is to have and open, flexible, FORGIVING!!!! mind - and be willing to work towards greatness at what their strengths are. Mixed breeding, especially with a AWD or Saarloos, or any other mix....surely only adds more variability - and thus unpredictability for untold generations.

Never say never. There will always be exceptional individuals in both dogs and their trainers.
But let's talk about the average CsV and the average buyers/owners.
-Do we need another GSD? Do we WANT another GSD? What kind of people buy CsV and for what purpose? What are their expectations for the breed? To what kind of activities they are planning to head with their CsV?
What are concidered to be the biggest issues/problems in the CsV character, and how to overcome them?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'd just add, that expressions "working" and "training" are very misleading. To some people they mean just training the dogs for official exams (IPO), to others - the dog being able to cooperate with the human in all sorts of activities, sometimes quite unconventional, like historical reconstructions, genuine man trailing, assisting in expeditions, guarding a site, etc. etc.

If we take the 1st meaning - I agree there are more suitable breeds, if the other - vlcaks due to their empathy, may be competitive to other breeds. Given the chance to learn how, vlcaks work by cooperating with humans, not necessarily by blindly obeying them.

I can sign after every word of yours

Marcy - if you love exams and so on with your dogs - this is great!!! We all can find our own ways to enjoy a CSV. If training is your way so you are having your best from your relationship with a wolfdog

[GalomyOak]

I don't really consider myself - or my dogs, other than they are MY dogs, my babies - exceptional. We are average. I had no dogs growing up, and only 2 - a mixed breed and a GSD - to base my "dog experience" on. I knew there would be a huge learning curve when I bought my first CSV (something I emphasize to potential new owners). I don't train every minute of every day. I am a teacher, and live on a small farm - we train when we have time. I am not so rich to afford top trainers or to to dog shows and trials every weekend. We go through local dog classes, and the rest is...a hobby, for free time.

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are. I imagine it becomes more difficult to find good homes for 4-5+ litters a year. Maybe it's not the breed itself, but how the breed is "grown" instead, that creates issues? No, my dogs are NOT GSDs, I work with those too (DDR lines, with common GSD ancestors to my CSVs)...THEY make me crazy. Hmmm..I think we have moved to a different topic.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are.

good thoughts

[Czertice]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I don't really consider myself - or my dogs, other than they are MY dogs, my babies - exceptional. We are average. I had no dogs growing up, and only 2 - a mixed breed and a GSD - to base my "dog experience" on. I knew there would be a huge learning curve when I bought my first CSV (something I emphasize to potential new owners). I don't train every minute of every day. I am a teacher, and live on a small farm - we train when we have time. I am not so rich to afford top trainers or to to dog shows and trials every weekend. We go through local dog classes, and the rest is...a hobby, for free time.

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are. I imagine it becomes more difficult to find good homes for 4-5+ litters a year. Maybe it's not the breed itself, but how the breed is "grown" instead, that creates issues? No, my dogs are NOT GSDs, I work with those too (DDR lines, with common GSD ancestors to my CSVs)...THEY make me crazy. Hmmm..I think we have moved to a different topic.

On the site where I publish my CSV photos, I get lots of people asking about how it is with CSVs in the US, interested in acquiring one. So I usually point them to you and your website, apart from wolfdog.org. I suspect some of these people fall into the 'mystical wolf' cathegory, but not all of them. I hope you don't mind;]

[whitefang]

Just one question, maybe I haven't read it here: Do the red CSV-puppies in France get FCI-pedigrees? Therefor they are not according to the standard...

[whitefang]

@Vaiva and Jennin Lauma: Just agree with your statements about breeding! Just brought on the point of view!