Pollux needs a new home (Florida - USA)

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist... )
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking?

As stated before, many times, we told Pollux's owner to wait and she didn't want to. She's the one who rushed to get a dog and she got Pollux for the wrong reasons. Yet we're the one cleaning up the mess and taking the heat on the forum like we've had 100% control over what's happened.

We took Pollux out of a neglectful situation and brought him into our home. Even though it was supposed to be temporary, we treated him and loved him as if he was one of our own.

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Absolutely! Also, what happened to the decision stated in another thread?

(Posted by Draggar)
I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

If this person breeds it is for purely internal reasons (yes, I've met other "breeders" like this before). It is in the contract that if he sells or rehomes (etc..) the puppies they MUST be neutered or spayed. Breach of contract is a valid reason for us to confiscate him.

Pollux hasn't even been registered wiht UKC or AKC yet, he was shown with a temporary ID (I don't even know where the paperwork is - I am not even sure if his owner got them yet). So even if he does sell the puppies it will be very hard to keep them in any vlcak program here in the USA w/o being registered.

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist... )
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

First, I never said I was a trainer - and for the record, I am not. I may know a thing or two but I'm FAR from a trainer (I bet even the average professional dog show handler knows more than I do). Yes, I've worked him though the guidance of trainers. I saw what he was when he first came into our home and with a hell of a lot of work he's become a much better dog. I gave up many Saturday afternoons to take him to schutzhund to work him and build up his confidence. I gave up many evenings talking him for long walks and exposing him to strangers (to him) and new enviroments. We even had him working as a service dog in training for a while so he could be exposed to a lot more than the average dog.

As for the home he's going to - that was the owner's call. We just screened the appliants (for the lack of a better term). Yes, he has acrage but Pollux isn't going to be out there 24-7. The person he's going to said that he wants to keep the dogs in his house with him. Pollux also loves to run around and play with other dgs - we see this whenever we go to the dog park. His grin goes from ear to ear and he will go on for hours running with the other dogs.

I am willing to bet that there will also be a lot of dog to human interaction since the dogs he has are used for film (in film they have to work with humans, even if the part isn't with humans).

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

If this person breeds it is for purely internal reasons (yes, I've met other "breeders" like this before). It is in the contract that if he sells or rehomes (etc..) the puppies they MUST be neutered or spayed. Breach of contract is a valid reason for us to confiscate him.

So even if he does sell the puppies it will be very hard to keep them in any vlcak program here in the USA w/o being registered.

So breeding for his 'internal reasons' is supposed to make it better to breed unregistered puppies??? You're supposed to be looking out for the welfare of each dog of the breed, not just if they are sold to the public, registered or not! I guess all the other backyard breeders who will spay and neuter animals if they sell them are also OK, and all the people who want to breed "to have their own pack of wolves" are also OK..

My goodness, where has logic and common sense went gone? What kind of thinking is this to befit a so-called 'founder' of a breed club in foundation?

Originally Posted by draggar

As for the home he's going to - that was the owner's call. We just screened the appliants (for the lack of a better term).

I call BS and I'm tired of every little thing being "his owner's call". Yes, she WAS his owner, but as far as I understand when you've fostered a dog for 6 months or more and alternatively represented him as a "co-own", you have good legal standing to take custody of this dog. You should really try to do that. And if you haven't tried to fight your friend whose decision is to send a mill (according to your words) dog off to be bred to make unregistered puppies, then you are complicit in this.

Though I guess you being extremely happy over this placement already means that.

I hope that if your club becomes the national UKC club, that members get to vote for positions. Hopefully most will read this rubbish written here and decide that you're not fit to head a breed club which purports to look out for the welfare of the dogs and the breed. Not registering the litters does not in fact make it better, and selling puppies altered also does not make it better.

[draggar]

Oh, let's put words in other people's mouths! I love this game!!

So, what you're saying is a ranch owner who breeds their own herding dogs and doesn't bother with registration and then sells the dogs that doesn't make the cut neutered / spayed to pet homes are destroying the breeds, too?

How about a police department who has their own breeding kennel and does the same with ther dogs that don't make the cut - are they destorying the breed too?

These are all working kennels and NOT just back yard breeders who want to mass-produce puppies to just sell. They breed dogs for WORK and if you think all dogs bred in working kennels make it to work you are living in some far off fantasy land.

Or do you think people shouldn't breed dogs for working ability and just breed pets to fill the demand for what's popular? Sounds more like you're the one who supports mills and back yard breeders. As long as they have papers according to you! If you truly think that way, go have a chat with the Hunte Corp and see what that mentality can lead to. Don't forget to ask about his incinerator or the 18-wheelers he gets!

Originally Posted by yukidomari

And if you haven't tried to fight your friend whose decision is to send a mill (according to your words).

.. and where did I say he was going to "a mill"?

His owner is still his owner, we were supposed to be made co-owners when his registration went though but it never did. Our "legal" standing is very small right now. We dobn't have the money to take her to court or even hire a lawyer. It's funny how people can shout LAWSUIT LAWSUIT when they know very little about the actual situation.

Also, all I see from you is complain, complain, and complain yet you didn't offer one bit of help yet you act like you know everything. I don't see any posts in this thread offering REAL help nor do I see any PMs from you offering help, just complaints about how we handled the situation.

But, since we're playing your game:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

If I were you I wouldn't care if the person was local or not for my own benefit in show or choice of playmate

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I don't think it's especially fair to him to 'hold out' on a new home waiting for one in your area which would be convenient to you, especially since things seem to be getting busy with your other dogs.

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I would say as advice, to never limit your options!

It sounds to me that you would have done the same in our situation.

Also, I'm not the one who insinuated that breeders today think that dogs are disposable and have "less brains":

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Maybe people back in the old days when Lassie and Rin Tin Tin was popular had more brains about dogs and didn't find them as disposable. Or just didn't see them as status objects like more people today.

At least I'm not the one being overly pessimistic:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Well, good for optimistic thinking, I guess. I should try it sometimes.

Now, are we done with the "put words in someone else's mouth" game?

[yukidomari]

I'll bite.

Originally Posted by draggar

So, what you're saying is a ranch owner who breeds their own herding dogs and doesn't bother with registration and then sells the dogs that doesn't make the cut neutered / spayed to pet homes are destroying the breeds, too?

No, because if you had bothered to read the rest of my post, where I wrote that I didn't like the "overnight breeder" part of this equation, you would have surmised that I would support unregistered utility dogs if and only if the owner knew their lines well and were breeding to better their type of dog for their stock and working capacity. Which, by the way, is CLEARLY not the situation here.

Oh and BTW making dogs for movies isn't comparable to police or ranch work.

That also still doesn't answer the question: WHY, as a person involved in the breed club, would you support ANY UNREGISTERED production of dogs. This is not about whether or not "registration is all that matters" or not.

Originally Posted by draggar

Or do you think people shouldn't breed dogs for working ability and just breed pets to fill the demand for what's popular? Sounds more like you're the one who supports mills and back yard breeders. As long as they have papers according to you!

Registration is not the end all of purebred dogs, but without registration a person isn't breeding, they're just producing. And you're supporting this. And again, don't kid yourself into thinking that movie production requires some 'special' new breeding of unregistered, possibly mixed, Vlcaks. Nice attempt at a straw man, though.

Anyway, even if the puppies were registered, doesn't make it better either.

Originally Posted by draggar

and where did I say he was going to "a mill"?

I didn't say you said he was going to a mill. Read. I said "Send a mill dog..".

Originally Posted by draggar

His owner is still his owner, we were supposed to be made co-owners when his registration went though but it never did. Our "legal" standing is very small right now. We dobn't have the money to take her to court or even hire a lawyer. It's funny how people can shout LAWSUIT LAWSUIT when they know very little about the actual situation.

Sounds like you've never been to small claims court, which is neither expensive nor requires a lawyer, and so it's funny how a person can shout that they can't do anything when they know very little about the American legal system.

Originally Posted by draggar

Also, all I see from you is complain, complain, and complain yet you didn't offer one bit of help yet you act like you know everything.

Nobody can tell you where to place a dog, they can only advise. And the advice here is not to place the dog here, not just from me, which you clearly don't care about anyway, and perceive it as complaining.

[GalomyOak]

I guess a couple of things don't make sense to me with that guy (if it is the same guy in the website).

1. In my interpretation, it has become easier in many places to own "hybrid" wolfdogs, since their reclassification as a species and also since many states now list ALL wolfdogs as a "domestic" animal. Even the vaccination controversy has simmered down considerably. Also, that guy says he obtains permits and works with the USDA, and works with other exotic species too - all the necessary framework you'd need as a professional, I imagine. I don't really understand his argument that it is becoming more difficult to work with hybrids. In any case, I think it will only be a matter of time, unfortunately, before insurance companies, localities, etc. get wind of our breed - probably through an incompetent owner - and they are added to the "dangerous dog breed list", only a slight step up from the legalities of hybrid ownership.

2. I'm not sure who the "kennel you don't like is", or the female who he plans to breed with. My understanding of working with animals, canines specifically, is that there is usually a set of them, with each dog having specific strengths and weaknesses in acting, that all look somewhat similar. Different dogs are used for different shots, all representing the same "character". I imagine animation does a lot now too. It would seem a trainer would want animals from different backgrounds - some with a background strong for being social. I'd think it would make more sense to obtain dogs from different litters - not the same litter based off of at least one shy parent? Hopefully he doesn't plan to pull the pups from the dam at 10 days as many hybrid breeders advocate.

3. There is the ethical standpoint. I can't agree with breeding dogs en masse for commercial reasons (not including service work or civil/military protection, where there is a waiting list for "extras"), even if they are a closed population. That's probably my biggest problem that I have come to see in "the working sport dog" world as well...dogs are really a commodity. If the trainer doesn't see a world champion, he implores you to buy a different dog, or sell the one you've got. The home itself...maybe it will be ok for Pollux, no more of a risk than any other new home, I guess, in terms of the wrangler's honesty, integrity and ability. But the breeding part...that scares me. Siobhan herself tells in the bio on her website how pro-humane shelter she is. Working in that environment, she must have seen the desperation that goes on there as a result of commercial breeding. Does she have an alter ego?

I am very proud of the ownership and home that you and Sara have provided for my Luna. If there is any way our rescue can help Pollux out (I didn't realize it had gotten to this stage), please let me know. I even have some space at my home if you need a respite.

[tupacs2legs]

Its all one big cop out!!!!

Where is the love of the breed???

Imo it seems to be more about having a rare breed... dogs don't seem to be loved family members but commodities!!!

Pleas let GalomyOak foster Pollux and hopefully find him a loving home so our breed is not also damned in your country too!


And if not why not?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

If there is any way our rescue can help Pollux out (I didn't realize it had gotten to this stage), please let me know. I even have some space at my home if you need a respite.

the best wariant - why not think about this but about "film star" this not important and not help for this dog. and IF not read this point realy and put him to "10 acres" - castrated him please