Sending a dog to a different continent - Guide for breeders - Page 2

Mikael · 11-07-2011, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

But do these contracts work internationally?

Nop they do not work internationally and almost not even nationally

The only thing that works are $$$ Let the buyer pay for a HD and ED x-ray when they pick up the puppy and than later pay the money back when they have official results on there dog at 18-24 month of age

Very best regards / Mikael

Morian · 11-07-2011, 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Nop they do not work internationally and almost not even nationally

at us if we sign such contract - it will work. i mean within russia.

Mikael · 11-07-2011, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morian

at us if we sign such contract - it will work. i mean within russia.

OK, but what happens if they deside to breed the dog anyway ???

What can you do

???

Best regards / Mikael

Morian · 11-07-2011, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

What can you do

???

Best regards / Mikael

my rights and variants of solving of every situation must be written in the contract. maybe i can take my pup back or oblige owners to pay some penalty... but sorry, i don't know more about our law, i'm not a lawyer. and i have no pups for sale

yukidomari · 11-07-2011, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

OK, but what happens if they deside to breed the dog anyway ???

What can you do

???

Best regards / Mikael

Here contracts within the US work pretty well, though I'd advise the contracts to be drawn up by an attorney to be safe, and notarized when signed.

I know breeders, some of them my friends, that have confiscated dogs from owners that've bred litters against the stipulations of the contract.

But really the only way to make sure that someone doesn't breed a dog against your contract is to spay-neuter before the dogs leave the house. Pediatric spay/neuter can be done on as young as 8 weeks old.

For popular breeds not lacking in genetic diversity this is not a problem, especially for small breeds which don't have large growth plates which are affected by a regular spay/neuter.

Anyway, I'm not an attorney but internationally contracts can be upheld.. but it would depend on how much money you've got to pour into it. Which is why most if not all of the clients we represent are all huge multi-million dollar corporations.

So rationally speaking, international contracts are not enforceable to the average person on the average income.

saschia · 11-07-2011, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

So rationally speaking, international contracts are not enforceable to the average person on the average income.

That is what we mean by not valid. Unless I spend I don't what kind of money on lawyers to write a contract and then to make sure it is kept, I don't have a contract that I could really enforce. Even a national one.

Morian · 11-07-2011, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

I don't have a contract that I could really enforce

this is one more reason for breeders to be careful and attentive while choosing owners.

Mikael · 11-07-2011, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

That is what we mean by not valid. Unless I spend I don't what kind of money on lawyers to write a contract and then to make sure it is kept, I don't have a contract that I could really enforce. Even a national one.

Yes, this is the thing... So I only use Breeders contract writen by the Swedish Kennel Club, that way they can help whit there lawyers, as I cold newer aford to spend that much money on a dog that was used in a way that was against my private contract...

The rest I take money for in advance, so now it is (free) for my buyers to go get HD and ED x-ray + the Swedish MH-test as I will pay for it whit the money that they did already did pay me when they did pick up the puppy´s

They still do not need to do it, if they do not want to, but they will than just waste there own money

And Noooo lawyer needed for me

Best regards / Mikael

Rona · 11-07-2011, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morian

this is one more reason for breeders to be careful and attentive while choosing owners.

I agree, but still it's better to have a good contract, than not to have.

Just like it's better to have the kennel/the pup/the dog/ officially registered/ HD, ED, DM, Dwarf tested/ its breeding rights officially obtained and terms of reproduction clearly stated.

Bonitation, trainings, shows, exams are bonuses, but securing the health and welfare of the pup are the most basic and vital obligations of the decent breeder and good owner.

If I were a breeder, in the first place I'd look into having a good contract drawn and signed. One, that would protect my pup as well as possible against all possible misfortunes I could anticipate.

However hard it may be to have it carried out, without a good contract the puppy is completely unprotected and in case of a crisis the breeder can do nothing, even if somebody offered him legal help

GalomyOak · 11-07-2011, 19:51

Great topic!

I will create a link for the contract I use later...like Yukidomari said though, it is expensive to enforce, at best. I think best practice here is to maintain a good - or even just tolerant and diplomatic relationship - with owners of puppies, and involve them with the "breed network" of their country - even if it is not a formal club. I think this is easier (maybe for a smaller breeder). I speak with the owners of my first litter weekly, usually through email or facebook - but, in my first litter I sold only 3 puppies, so three owners isn't too many people to talk to.

I think the biggest three problems presented to a breeder are:
1. The owner decides they can no longer care for the dog
2. The owner decides they want to breed the dog.
3. The owner fails to provide good care for the dog (this is probably the most difficult problem to detect).

For the first problem, if the breeder still has a good relationship with the owner, and if they have planned in case something goes wrong, and if it is written in the contract, it really should be no problem for the owner to return the dog. In my contract, I write that it is the owner's financial responsibility to return the dog to me (they get no refund, unless the dog has a genetic health problem). In reality, I know there could be problems for the owner to return the dog at their cost - so I make sure I have the money or other plans to arrange for a "return" ticket, if necessary. I will not ship a dog unless the person has visited my kennel before. I won't sell more than one puppy from a litter to a new owner (if it's a good owner, a puppy from a future litter is no problem), in case they have problems with the dog, but also because I believe it is best to only have one puppy at a time for socialization.

For the second problem, there is a program in AKC called "limited registration". With this program, the breeder sells a puppy with no breeding or conformation showing rights - litters originating from the puppy cannot be registered. The dogs can participate in obedience and other performance events (but I think they might have to be spayed/neutered to do so...). This registration can be cancelled, I think, if the breeder chooses to do so in the future, and be replaced by full registration breeding rights to the new owner. There is also the possibility of co-ownership - my signature would be required before a litter could be registered from a dog I sell. This can be permanent, or, like I plan to do with future litters, changed to "sole ownership" (new owner has all breeding rights, my signature is no longer needed) once the dog has passed minimum requirements (for me, it is HD, ED, DM, DNA registration, 1st eye test, temperament test - Canine Good Citizen, and also I want to evaluate the dog to make sure it has no disqualifying faults - eventually, I hope we will have a bonitation process here, but for now...). In maintaining a good relationship, I REALLY hope future owners will keep a dialogue with me about their breeding plans for "my dog", so I can share my knowledge and concerns. If the new owner doesn't like these options...they can find another breeder.

I don't know if there is a way to do this between AKC and FCI countries.

The third problem is very tricky, especially if the dog is living many kilometers away. Different owners have different ideas about what is a "nice life" for a dog. The laws in the US provide some VERY basic requirements for what is okay (dog must have clean water, not live on a chain, have food, medical care and clean facilities and shelter from the weather, and in most places, not be allowed to run free). The contract can (should!!!) require more, but if it is beyond what humane law requires, it becomes the obligation of the breeder to enforce. Humane laws tend to be very poor in enforcement and consequences, especially with a bad economy.

In some cases, breeders have been contacted by people who know the new owner saying conditions are bad for the dog, and the breeder can intervene. Again, this is where a relationship is very important with the new owner - if they are happy, usually they share stories, questions, photos, problems, successes periodically with the breeder (as long as the breeder responds in a nice way...). It could become a big problem, I guess if the new owner lost contact...

Gypsy Wolf · 12-07-2011, 01:37

Excellent post Marcy - very true. I have a similarly-worded contract for the few German Shepherd pups I have produced, and luckily, most of them have been placed locally, where I can do home visits and offer training support in person, as needed.
I also always co-own at least one pup out of each litter. This affords a much closer breeder-puppy owner relationship, I think.
From what I have see in the past with many years in the dog world - often a contract is only as good as the paper it's printed on. Your best bet is getting to know your buyers.
And another point you brought up is what is "acceptable" when it comes to a home environment? I do not sell to anyone who will not have the dog live in their home. No kennels, no "breeders" - aside from the co-owned pups, my pups are sold on spay/neuter contracts under Limited Registration (as an aside, there is now a loophole that allows buyers to appeal to AKC and get Full Registration instated if they have a LR pup - without the breeder even being informed - this is so AKC can register more puppies, doncha know!). Of course, with a large breed like a GSD, I do not suggest the pups be altered until they are at least 18 months old, to ensure proper development, which, if they are in the wrong hands, can pose a potential "oops" litter problem. I can only hope I was correct in evaluating the people who have since welcomed my pups into their homes...
And sometimes a potential owner looks good, seems to have a proven record but then disappoints us... I know a situation just like that...

yukidomari · 12-07-2011, 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

For the second problem, there is a program in AKC called "limited registration". With this program, the breeder sells a puppy with no breeding or conformation showing rights - litters originating from the puppy cannot be registered. The dogs can participate in obedience and other performance events (but I think they might have to be spayed/neutered to do so...).

I agree, but there's always the problem of puppy producers who don't care about papers and registrations.. and pet shoppers who equally don't care or don't know... or they will go with an even worse KC like the Continental KC, which doesn't require papers at all to register a dog, unfortunately.

As a side note, there's talk the AKC will soon offer altered class in dog shows too, like the UKC has already. It wouldn't interfere with spay/neuter for a sports-but-not-breeding-oriented family.

But as it is, CsV are a long ways from being AKC recognized, and so for now have to stick with UKC, which as I understand doesn't offer limited registration anyway.

AMERICANI · 30-09-2011, 04:54

Thanks also for the info in the previous posts. I also have developed a contract. Mine ecourages people to show, train, compete while making it legally binding that they have - in writing - my authorization for any involvement in a breeding involving the said dog.

11-07-2011, 19:51	#30
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	Great topic! I will create a link for the contract I use later...like Yukidomari said though, it is expensive to enforce, at best. I think best practice here is to maintain a good - or even just tolerant and diplomatic relationship - with owners of puppies, and involve them with the "breed network" of their country - even if it is not a formal club. I think this is easier (maybe for a smaller breeder). I speak with the owners of my first litter weekly, usually through email or facebook - but, in my first litter I sold only 3 puppies, so three owners isn't too many people to talk to. I think the biggest three problems presented to a breeder are: 1. The owner decides they can no longer care for the dog 2. The owner decides they want to breed the dog. 3. The owner fails to provide good care for the dog (this is probably the most difficult problem to detect). For the first problem, if the breeder still has a good relationship with the owner, and if they have planned in case something goes wrong, and if it is written in the contract, it really should be no problem for the owner to return the dog. In my contract, I write that it is the owner's financial responsibility to return the dog to me (they get no refund, unless the dog has a genetic health problem). In reality, I know there could be problems for the owner to return the dog at their cost - so I make sure I have the money or other plans to arrange for a "return" ticket, if necessary. I will not ship a dog unless the person has visited my kennel before. I won't sell more than one puppy from a litter to a new owner (if it's a good owner, a puppy from a future litter is no problem), in case they have problems with the dog, but also because I believe it is best to only have one puppy at a time for socialization. For the second problem, there is a program in AKC called "limited registration". With this program, the breeder sells a puppy with no breeding or conformation showing rights - litters originating from the puppy cannot be registered. The dogs can participate in obedience and other performance events (but I think they might have to be spayed/neutered to do so...). This registration can be cancelled, I think, if the breeder chooses to do so in the future, and be replaced by full registration breeding rights to the new owner. There is also the possibility of co-ownership - my signature would be required before a litter could be registered from a dog I sell. This can be permanent, or, like I plan to do with future litters, changed to "sole ownership" (new owner has all breeding rights, my signature is no longer needed) once the dog has passed minimum requirements (for me, it is HD, ED, DM, DNA registration, 1st eye test, temperament test - Canine Good Citizen, and also I want to evaluate the dog to make sure it has no disqualifying faults - eventually, I hope we will have a bonitation process here, but for now...). In maintaining a good relationship, I REALLY hope future owners will keep a dialogue with me about their breeding plans for "my dog", so I can share my knowledge and concerns. If the new owner doesn't like these options...they can find another breeder. I don't know if there is a way to do this between AKC and FCI countries. The third problem is very tricky, especially if the dog is living many kilometers away. Different owners have different ideas about what is a "nice life" for a dog. The laws in the US provide some VERY basic requirements for what is okay (dog must have clean water, not live on a chain, have food, medical care and clean facilities and shelter from the weather, and in most places, not be allowed to run free). The contract can (should!!!) require more, but if it is beyond what humane law requires, it becomes the obligation of the breeder to enforce. Humane laws tend to be very poor in enforcement and consequences, especially with a bad economy. In some cases, breeders have been contacted by people who know the new owner saying conditions are bad for the dog, and the breeder can intervene. Again, this is where a relationship is very important with the new owner - if they are happy, usually they share stories, questions, photos, problems, successes periodically with the breeder (as long as the breeder responds in a nice way...). It could become a big problem, I guess if the new owner lost contact... __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

12-07-2011, 01:37	#31
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Excellent post Marcy - very true. I have a similarly-worded contract for the few German Shepherd pups I have produced, and luckily, most of them have been placed locally, where I can do home visits and offer training support in person, as needed. I also always co-own at least one pup out of each litter. This affords a much closer breeder-puppy owner relationship, I think. From what I have see in the past with many years in the dog world - often a contract is only as good as the paper it's printed on. Your best bet is getting to know your buyers. And another point you brought up is what is "acceptable" when it comes to a home environment? I do not sell to anyone who will not have the dog live in their home. No kennels, no "breeders" - aside from the co-owned pups, my pups are sold on spay/neuter contracts under Limited Registration (as an aside, there is now a loophole that allows buyers to appeal to AKC and get Full Registration instated if they have a LR pup - without the breeder even being informed - this is so AKC can register more puppies, doncha know!). Of course, with a large breed like a GSD, I do not suggest the pups be altered until they are at least 18 months old, to ensure proper development, which, if they are in the wrong hands, can pose a potential "oops" litter problem. I can only hope I was correct in evaluating the people who have since welcomed my pups into their homes... And sometimes a potential owner looks good, seems to have a proven record but then disappoints us... I know a situation just like that...

30-09-2011, 04:54	#33
AMERICANI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 111	Thanks also for the info in the previous posts. I also have developed a contract. Mine ecourages people to show, train, compete while making it legally binding that they have - in writing - my authorization for any involvement in a breeding involving the said dog.