How can we stop our breed from collapsing under the push of fake CSW and pedigrees?

Mikael · 16-07-2011, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

But I think they might have to listen to the patronage club = SK club, right

???

Best regards / Mikael

Pavel · 16-07-2011, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

Mikael, dont be a idealist

. FCI is a big bussines and some parts of system like a mafia.

Sending any emails or letters are not sense. Our breed must defence only we self.

Morian · 16-07-2011, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Sending any emails or letters are not sense

this is not true. i had to deal with fci 2 times... it helps, really. letters, petitions etc. we must not say "it's sensless", we must not sit idly by, we must act

i wonder how many words were said, why are you all still here doing the same - words? the only questions are: who will make, what exactly and when/how. enough. who has tried to write a letter, to create a petition, finally to make promised so long ago dna tests? auu? we have not many csv at us, but even here people are interested in pure breeding, we offered financial help if somebody decides to make test, we also want to test some dogs from here coming from the "doubtful" lines. some people from here offered to test these dogs for red pigment (i don't know is there any sense, but i'm happy that our people are ready to do anything, not only to discuss this problem virtually)

massimo · 18-07-2011, 13:33

I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless.
NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed.
I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess..
disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it...
disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers...

Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit.
BULLSHIT!!
Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines...
These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it.
AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake.

When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious...

Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing...

hanninadina · 18-07-2011, 14:54

Massimo, you have a lot of knowledge with the breed, you can talk and write excellent. You are one of a handful csw people who knows most of them and are respected from everyone. So from my point of view you would be the best person to start a petition to the FCI. I know you want to be friend with most of the people and do not open your pandora box, but if you are screaming here, the same is true for you, why do you do not start to fight against backyard mixing outcross breeding?Best example how breeders ruined their own reputation is Cory Keizer. When she starts with a handful dogs at the begining of the 2000s, all was nice. But then she starts mixing Saarloos with csw. And what did we get? Untypical dogs and ... they did not look nice!Same starts now from France. Lots of untypical wolfdogs. They even look like some mixed Huskys or Malamutes. I forgot, Cory did from France too the last years. First under her own name and now under a different name. Frankie follows in her foodsteps.But Massimo to be honest, Edit has best possibilities to do everything where she lives. And when you see the good cooperation with Frankie everyone can simply imagine, how the deals work. Someone wrote, I do not if in this thread or another, chaeting would not happen in Slovakia and other countries. But that is not true and the over years in csw involved people know that. I know for sure in a famous slovakian kennel was done refreshing blood. And if you see these animals from the begining of the 2000, everybody who has good contact to pure wolves, know that these animals are so amazingly well and nice in behaviour, because the wolf behaviour turns out of them. But I would say, the good thing is, that a carpathian wolf was taken.That from Finland F 1 csw came down to europe and only a few do know the true pedigree is a result from witch hunting after the Mutara project! I wrote some month ago in german forum. Although I know that there is in the moment no real need to cross in a carpathian wolf it would be good to do it, so it could be prevented that the illegal mixing goes on. And truely every breeder who refuses to make dna should come on a list which is clearly published here on wolfdog.org on first sight and of course on all clubs in each country. So newbys could see immediately, where you will not get true pure csw.Of course from a wolf/csw litter not all pups will be able to be csw. Only 1 or 2 will be who can use further for breeding. But clubs must lead the breeding and not fake pedigee producers.To the fake pedigree producers I only can say, if you think you did a good breeding in crossing. Take your dogs to register them. Be fair and do the bonitation, watch for the standard. And if your fresh blood new csws will pass everything, with Gods sake go on with your breeding. But then everybody would see and can decide by themselves, if they want a new mixed but official csw or a an old line csw. Chrisitan

massimo · 18-07-2011, 15:29

Christian, i am NOBODY.
Clubs should take action, strong action.
Owners of the standard should do it.
I am just shouting my worries...but my life continues easily.
I am concerned for the breed..but my dogs are the only really important thing.
Clubs are natural connection with FCI, not me.

About Edit, I have visited her kennel many times, and genetically they all seem following her own breeding logic, to my eyes, so I would put my word that her dogs DNA and her pedigrees correspond exactly.
What others do with her dogs is not her responsibility.
m

yukidomari · 18-07-2011, 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

What others do with her dogs is not her responsibility.
m

I disagree with this and hope that's not the same mind set all breeders have.

saschia · 18-07-2011, 15:31

Christian, I would be very interested to know in which kennel you think the CSV was "refreshed" by wolf blood.

The post regarding mixing/cheating in Slovakia was mine. I cannot of course tell about wolves, as there are plenty of those in Slovakia

, I have my reserves but would not consider it impossible. And I don't say people in Slovakia would not cheat, although I would like to believe that. But my post which you mentioned was specifically about SWD inmixing, and I gave several reasons why I consider it very unlikely to happen in Slovakia, at least untill now http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=116.

saschia · 18-07-2011, 15:49

Massimo, you are right that the clubs should do something, so I hope we will be able to think about something and, most importantly, to get a good cooperation between the clubs.

But I must say, that although I find it hard to believe Edit would cheat intentionally, the red puppies were born after the parents from her kennel, and the paternity was proved by DNA tests, so that means something is wrong, and her saying nothing and not cooperating doesn't help. On the other hand, I don't like making judgement based on limited knowledge, so I am not judging myself until I know more.

Making the overall DNA testing would be the most revealing thing, but as Sonya posted elsewhere, the question remains who will pay for it? And if we find the money somehow, in what way will we decide, what/who to test first? The money is never unlimited, unlike the ways you can spend it.

18-07-2011, 13:33	#4
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless. NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed. I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess.. disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it... disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers... Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit. BULLSHIT!! Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines... These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it. AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake. When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious... Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing... __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

18-07-2011, 14:54	#5
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Massimo, you have a lot of knowledge with the breed, you can talk and write excellent. You are one of a handful csw people who knows most of them and are respected from everyone. So from my point of view you would be the best person to start a petition to the FCI. I know you want to be friend with most of the people and do not open your pandora box, but if you are screaming here, the same is true for you, why do you do not start to fight against backyard mixing outcross breeding?Best example how breeders ruined their own reputation is Cory Keizer. When she starts with a handful dogs at the begining of the 2000s, all was nice. But then she starts mixing Saarloos with csw. And what did we get? Untypical dogs and ... they did not look nice!Same starts now from France. Lots of untypical wolfdogs. They even look like some mixed Huskys or Malamutes. I forgot, Cory did from France too the last years. First under her own name and now under a different name. Frankie follows in her foodsteps.But Massimo to be honest, Edit has best possibilities to do everything where she lives. And when you see the good cooperation with Frankie everyone can simply imagine, how the deals work. Someone wrote, I do not if in this thread or another, chaeting would not happen in Slovakia and other countries. But that is not true and the over years in csw involved people know that. I know for sure in a famous slovakian kennel was done refreshing blood. And if you see these animals from the begining of the 2000, everybody who has good contact to pure wolves, know that these animals are so amazingly well and nice in behaviour, because the wolf behaviour turns out of them. But I would say, the good thing is, that a carpathian wolf was taken.That from Finland F 1 csw came down to europe and only a few do know the true pedigree is a result from witch hunting after the Mutara project! I wrote some month ago in german forum. Although I know that there is in the moment no real need to cross in a carpathian wolf it would be good to do it, so it could be prevented that the illegal mixing goes on. And truely every breeder who refuses to make dna should come on a list which is clearly published here on wolfdog.org on first sight and of course on all clubs in each country. So newbys could see immediately, where you will not get true pure csw.Of course from a wolf/csw litter not all pups will be able to be csw. Only 1 or 2 will be who can use further for breeding. But clubs must lead the breeding and not fake pedigee producers.To the fake pedigree producers I only can say, if you think you did a good breeding in crossing. Take your dogs to register them. Be fair and do the bonitation, watch for the standard. And if your fresh blood new csws will pass everything, with Gods sake go on with your breeding. But then everybody would see and can decide by themselves, if they want a new mixed but official csw or a an old line csw. Chrisitan Last edited by hanninadina; 18-07-2011 at 15:05.

18-07-2011, 15:29	#6
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Christian, i am NOBODY. Clubs should take action, strong action. Owners of the standard should do it. I am just shouting my worries...but my life continues easily. I am concerned for the breed..but my dogs are the only really important thing. Clubs are natural connection with FCI, not me. About Edit, I have visited her kennel many times, and genetically they all seem following her own breeding logic, to my eyes, so I would put my word that her dogs DNA and her pedigrees correspond exactly. What others do with her dogs is not her responsibility. m __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

18-07-2011, 15:31	#8
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Christian, I would be very interested to know in which kennel you think the CSV was "refreshed" by wolf blood. The post regarding mixing/cheating in Slovakia was mine. I cannot of course tell about wolves, as there are plenty of those in Slovakia , I have my reserves but would not consider it impossible. And I don't say people in Slovakia would not cheat, although I would like to believe that. But my post which you mentioned was specifically about SWD inmixing, and I gave several reasons why I consider it very unlikely to happen in Slovakia, at least untill now http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=116. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

18-07-2011, 15:49	#9
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Massimo, you are right that the clubs should do something, so I hope we will be able to think about something and, most importantly, to get a good cooperation between the clubs. But I must say, that although I find it hard to believe Edit would cheat intentionally, the red puppies were born after the parents from her kennel, and the paternity was proved by DNA tests, so that means something is wrong, and her saying nothing and not cooperating doesn't help. On the other hand, I don't like making judgement based on limited knowledge, so I am not judging myself until I know more. Making the overall DNA testing would be the most revealing thing, but as Sonya posted elsewhere, the question remains who will pay for it? And if we find the money somehow, in what way will we decide, what/who to test first? The money is never unlimited, unlike the ways you can spend it. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws