British Kennel Club Recognition

pixie · 21-09-2011, 13:36

Oh and just because someone bred mixes in the past dosent mean they should be excluded, this is a new start, so lets all get together and fight for this breed in our country, if we do it before October ends that would be better. stop arguing with each other and get it going

tupacs2legs · 21-09-2011, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixie

Oh and just because someone bred mixes in the past dosent mean they should be excluded, this is a new start, so lets all get together and fight for this breed in our country, if we do it before October ends that would be better. stop arguing with each other and get it going

as in weeks ago

thats not past!!!

and im sorry..trust imo is a BIG thing!!.....or it will all end up like the 'wolf-alike' rubbish!!!

pixie · 21-09-2011, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

as in weeks ago

thats not past!!!

and im sorry..trust imo is a BIG thing!!.....or it will all end up like the 'wolf-alike' rubbish!!!

And to most of us on here but if we exclude people they will carry on as they are lets get a club started and lay down some rules its not hard if we want it bad enough

Murph · 21-09-2011, 13:59

Excellent posts pixie. I believe in inclusive discussion.... Not petty bitching.
Tupac- I know you feel strongly about wolfy crosses so how come you got your dog from a breeder who does just that?
Please note this is a simple question not a snipe

happyfeet · 21-09-2011, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

as in weeks ago

thats not past!!!

and im sorry..trust imo is a BIG thing!!.....or it will all end up like the 'wolf-alike' rubbish!!!

oh dear, did paul also turn you down when he vetted you like the other breeder did.seems very much like you have a bug to bare! give him chance to reply to you and yes would be fab to get a group together!!

tupacs2legs · 21-09-2011, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by happyfeet

oh dear, did paul also turn you down when he vetted you like the other breeder did.seems very much like you have a bug to bare! give him chance to reply to you and yes would be fab to get a group together!!

pmsl!!!!!!!!!! i have never approached him for a dog!! fact is he doesnt breed pure anyway! lol

are you two friends??

you think you know everything about me ,you know nothing and its laughable the conclusions you are coming to lol!

happyfeet · 21-09-2011, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

pmsl!!!!!!!!!! i have never approached him for a dog!! fact is he doesnt breed pure anyway! lol

are you two friends??

you think you know everything about me ,you know nothing and its laughable the conclusions you are coming to lol!

Never met him before, however thought he was brave posting on here!! and very honest.. shame you want to continue your attacks towards forum members ..

nice to see other newer members politely thanking him for his post.

You are quick to judge and voice an opinion, shame you can not accept opinions of others!

tupacs2legs · 21-09-2011, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by happyfeet

Never met him before, however thought he was brave posting on here!! and very honest.. shame you want to continue your attacks towards forum members ..

nice to see other newer members politely thanking him for his post.

You are quick to judge and voice an opinion, shame you can not accept opinions of others!

What attack???

I said hi,with a smiley face then asked valid questions!!

orkwolf · 21-09-2011, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by happyfeet

Never met him before, however thought he was brave posting on here!! and very honest.. shame you want to continue your attacks towards forum members ..

nice to see other newer members politely thanking him for his post.

You are quick to judge and voice an opinion, shame you can not accept opinions of others!

Thank you for your comments, hopefully as we go along you will all see that I am 100% honest and genuine, even though I have CsV and cross Csv I do want the best and a dream would be to have new pure lines in the uK that are accredited and fully health screened and tested.

happyfeet · 21-09-2011, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by orkwolf

Thank you for your comments, hopefully as we go along you will all see that I am 100% honest and genuine, even though I have CsV and cross Csv I do want the best and a dream would be to have new pure lines in the uK that are accredited and fully health screened and tested.

I wish you luck! I am a newbie here too, hard to voice an opinion but stick with it, I am an owner of a pure FC1 shes older now and I brought her with me to work in UK, was a hard decision to go threw putting her threw all that was the worse thing but knew I couldnt leave her ! Now she lives in a little village yorkshire dales amidst fields , farms and tractors and is a star as we pass the tiny village school.

Rona · 21-09-2011, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixie

Oh and just because someone bred mixes in the past dosent mean they should be excluded, this is a new start, so lets all get together and fight for this breed in our country, if we do it before October ends that would be better. stop arguing with each other and get it going

I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).
1. If a breeder breeding under FCI recognized KC has even one mix bred litter and sells it, he loses breeding rights for good, no matter how much he wants to get things right afterwards. This is a major crime against regulations and breeder ethics and such person is persona non grata among honest breeders.

2. If an accident happens (things happen even in best FCI kennels) and there is an unwanted mix-bred litter, a responisble breeder gives away the pups to good people and makes sure the dogs are neutered asap. Not to mention that he'd never boast about it on his/her webpage, becasue this would put his reputation at risk.

3. If a dishonest breeder consciously mix-breeds he usually tries to issue fake FCI pedigrees and when this is found out- he loses his reliablity and sells later only to puppy mills and ignorant owners who don't know what they're buying. If this is proved - look at point 1.

Once the British "pup manufacturers" (sorry for this expression, but for me a breeder is somebody who is a purity guarant of a particular breed), who keep producing mix-bred litters understand how they're percieved among the solid CSV breeders they will finally understand why they may only trade with puppy mills whose owners don't care what happens later to their "kids". No wonder caring breeders don't want to sell them good quality pups - they value their own work and efforts too much to have it wasted or risk their pups will be used for non-ethical (in their justified perception) breeding.

Shadowlands · 21-09-2011, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).
1. If a breeder breeding under FCI recognized KC has even one mix bred litter and sells it, he loses breeding rights for good, no matter how much he wants to get things right afterwards. This is a major crime against regulations and breeder ethics and such person is persona non grata among honest breeders.

2. If an accident happens (things happen even in best FCI kennels) and there is an unwanted mix-bred litter, a responisble breeder gives away the pups to good people and makes sure the dogs are neutered asap. Not to mention that he'd never boast about it on his/her webpage, becasue this would put his reputation at risk.

3. If a dishonest breeder consciously mix-breeds he usually tries to issue fake FCI pedigrees and when this is found out- he loses his reliablity and sells later only to puppy mills and ignorant owners who don't know what they're buying. If this is proved - look at point 1.

Once the British "pup manufacturers" (sorry for this expression, but for me a breeder is somebody who is a purity guarant of a particular breed), who keep producing mix-bred litters understand how they're percieved among the solid CSV breeders they will finally understand why they may only trade with puppy mills whose owners don't care what happens later to their "kids". No wonder caring breeders don't want to sell them good quality pups - they value their own work and efforts too much to have it wasted or risk their pups will be used for non-ethical (in their justified perception) breeding.

Once again, Rona cuts to the heart of the issue and makes sensible valid points

Points that need to be considered by ALL parties involved...

pixie · 21-09-2011, 14:33

[quote=Rona;405213]I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).
Maybe i dont understand it but we want to start afresh and getting recognition in this country is my priority

happyfeet · 21-09-2011, 14:40

[quote=pixie;405220]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).
Maybe i dont understand it but we want to start afresh and getting recognition in this country is my priority

HERE HERE!!!

orkwolf · 21-09-2011, 14:46

[quote=happyfeet;405223]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixie

HERE HERE!!!

I would welcome that and would like to help in any way.

Rona · 21-09-2011, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).

Maybe i dont understand it but we want to start afresh and getting recognition in this country is my priority

That's the problem, that you don't.

Which reliable and solid breeder breeding "quality" pups could trust somebody whom he perceives a "pup manufacturer" only because the latter says: "I bred mixes last month, but from now onward I'll breed only pure CSV..."

You forget that pure CSVs are very smart and stupid people just do not breed them

People clearly see the true motivation of the "converts": pure vlcaks' market will probably be growing and for mixes shrinking... Why should anybody purchase a 1/2 vs 1/3 vs 1/4 hybrid/mix (yes, I saw such a puppy being offered in one of the British kennels

) for over a 1000 GBP if he may get a pure dog with FCI pedigree, from health tested parents, good HD record and predictable character for half the price?

I think and it's not only my impression, the above discussion has little to do with breeding. More with a struggle for market share.

Well, I'm not against market mechanisms in general, but even in business trust matters.

pixie · 21-09-2011, 16:33

I understand that trust matters and maybe some people will join us purely on a money making scheme, but we have to start somewhere, which is why I originally said lets start a club, then visit some European shows to build up trust. but if European breeders dont help us we cant catch up. I read this forum and see that some european breeders breed just for money and use mixes, and they have all the help of Europe behind them, yes I know some British breeders will still do this even try and trick European breeders into selling them dogs. This is not a perfect world but some of us want to try and promote the breed for what we consider the right reasons, all I am asking is give us a chance to prove it.

Shadowlands · 21-09-2011, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixie

I read this forum and see that some european breeders breed just for money and use mixes, and they have all the help of Europe behind them,

They don't have the backing and support of reputable breeders once it is shown that they are using mixes. Just look at the problems Crying Wolf has created for herself and for the breed - I don't see a lot of support for her there.

pixie · 21-09-2011, 17:11

Hi I was'nt saying they were helped to cross-breed just that they can get hold of the CSV's easier than us in Britain, but still do it, so even if we start afresh people will still crossbreed, I mean look how many mongrels there are in the world. So i apologise for not making it clearer what I meant

yukidomari · 21-09-2011, 18:35

From reading this entire thread I just have a few observations ..

1) Nobody, as I am aware, has accused anyone of mistreating their dogs or not being caring to their dogs. The point is solely that cross-breeding is not in the interest of furthering any purebred breed. Including Vlcaks. And if you do it, you are abusing the breed no matter if you are nice to your own dogs.

2) Nobody has said only a specific person or only UK breeders cross-breed/s. It's well known that there are breeders outside of UK that cross breed, but I don't know where the idea comes from that these breeders are not equally criticized. There are several threads on here that discuss several European kennels known to cross breed. There is even a sticky thread specifically noting which here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17707

3) In regards to crossing CsV because you have to 'work with what you've got', well, this is not a valid argument to me. Here where I am I do not have a breeding female Vlcak within many hundreds of kilometers. But I do have many Chihuahuas and Pit-bulls in this area. Point being, whether or not you breed to a "3/4ths" Vlcak bitch or a Pit-bull, it is cross breeding nonetheless and does nothing to advance the breed no matter where you are. Unless your sole intention to breed is to create 'wolfy looking dogs' without caring to preserve the history and nature of a purebred breed.

4) It's all well and good to want to make a new start, but as Rona said, trust matters. If you were breeding mixes just last month, or ever, really, it doesn't matter that you say you're interested in breeding purebred dogs now (and btw, does that mean that you will ONLY breed purebred dogs from now on, or mostly purebreds with some mixes now and then?).. no good breeder is going to send you a nice bitch or dog until you have proven through action to be interested in the breed and the welfare of it.

No matter what anyone says people are going to judge you by past actions, and rightly so, until you make future actions to prove otherwise.

I hope that there is a group formed that does show that there is a future for well-bred Vlcaks in the UK. And right now, virtually no good breeder is going to send anyone a nice Vlcak to breed with, like Rona said, the only ones to do it at this moment will be other producers.

It takes lots of time to change past histories and perceptions, correct or not, just like politics. It's not going to happen overnight or even by January, if you want to go about it right.

Just my two cents.

21-09-2011, 13:36	#1
pixie Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 89	Oh and just because someone bred mixes in the past dosent mean they should be excluded, this is a new start, so lets all get together and fight for this breed in our country, if we do it before October ends that would be better. stop arguing with each other and get it going

21-09-2011, 13:59	#4
Murph Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Devon Posts: 54	Excellent posts pixie. I believe in inclusive discussion.... Not petty bitching. Tupac- I know you feel strongly about wolfy crosses so how come you got your dog from a breeder who does just that? Please note this is a simple question not a snipe

21-09-2011, 14:33	#13
pixie Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 89	[quote=Rona;405213]I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?). Maybe i dont understand it but we want to start afresh and getting recognition in this country is my priority

21-09-2011, 16:33	#17
pixie Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 89	I understand that trust matters and maybe some people will join us purely on a money making scheme, but we have to start somewhere, which is why I originally said lets start a club, then visit some European shows to build up trust. but if European breeders dont help us we cant catch up. I read this forum and see that some european breeders breed just for money and use mixes, and they have all the help of Europe behind them, yes I know some British breeders will still do this even try and trick European breeders into selling them dogs. This is not a perfect world but some of us want to try and promote the breed for what we consider the right reasons, all I am asking is give us a chance to prove it.

21-09-2011, 17:11	#19
pixie Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 89	Hi I was'nt saying they were helped to cross-breed just that they can get hold of the CSV's easier than us in Britain, but still do it, so even if we start afresh people will still crossbreed, I mean look how many mongrels there are in the world. So i apologise for not making it clearer what I meant

21-09-2011, 18:35	#20
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	From reading this entire thread I just have a few observations .. 1) Nobody, as I am aware, has accused anyone of mistreating their dogs or not being caring to their dogs. The point is solely that cross-breeding is not in the interest of furthering any purebred breed. Including Vlcaks. And if you do it, you are abusing the breed no matter if you are nice to your own dogs. 2) Nobody has said only a specific person or only UK breeders cross-breed/s. It's well known that there are breeders outside of UK that cross breed, but I don't know where the idea comes from that these breeders are not equally criticized. There are several threads on here that discuss several European kennels known to cross breed. There is even a sticky thread specifically noting which here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17707 3) In regards to crossing CsV because you have to 'work with what you've got', well, this is not a valid argument to me. Here where I am I do not have a breeding female Vlcak within many hundreds of kilometers. But I do have many Chihuahuas and Pit-bulls in this area. Point being, whether or not you breed to a "3/4ths" Vlcak bitch or a Pit-bull, it is cross breeding nonetheless and does nothing to advance the breed no matter where you are. Unless your sole intention to breed is to create 'wolfy looking dogs' without caring to preserve the history and nature of a purebred breed. 4) It's all well and good to want to make a new start, but as Rona said, trust matters. If you were breeding mixes just last month, or ever, really, it doesn't matter that you say you're interested in breeding purebred dogs now (and btw, does that mean that you will ONLY breed purebred dogs from now on, or mostly purebreds with some mixes now and then?).. no good breeder is going to send you a nice bitch or dog until you have proven through action to be interested in the breed and the welfare of it. No matter what anyone says people are going to judge you by past actions, and rightly so, until you make future actions to prove otherwise. I hope that there is a group formed that does show that there is a future for well-bred Vlcaks in the UK. And right now, virtually no good breeder is going to send anyone a nice Vlcak to breed with, like Rona said, the only ones to do it at this moment will be other producers. It takes lots of time to change past histories and perceptions, correct or not, just like politics. It's not going to happen overnight or even by January, if you want to go about it right. Just my two cents.