Galiba guilty ??

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Admin

In both cases "Galiba"'s blood was involved.
Although I also think that not Galiba is the possible Saarloos mix but there are serious questions if he is father of (all) his offsprings and not the Saarloos Dvorack living by Crying Wolf.

In other words, there is a possibility that Galiba himself is not a Saarloos mix, 'simply' that his name was hung on papers which were actually sired by the Saarloos Dvorak?

[Hanka]

Hello admin, you know nothing (!!) about my pups, so be so friendly and don´t write about my pups like about untypicle, OK?
You attacked them when they was 2 days (because you hate owner of father of pups) old and it continues now, when one of these puppy is World winner. Are you really so envy person?
You know nothing about genetic base of this pups.....
You don´t know history of breed here in Czech.
You never had seen pups in 80., 90. years....

[admin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello admin, you know nothing (!!) about my pups, so be so friendly and don´t write about my pups like about untypicle, OK?
You attacked them when they was 2 days (because you hate owner of father of pups) old and it continues now, when one of these puppy is World winner. Are you really so envy person?
You know nothing about genetic base of this pups.....
You don´t know history of breed here in Czech.
You never had seen pups in 80., 90. years....

I do not hate anyone - I have no reason to be envy. Being not a breeder has its advantages.
What I wrote base only on the arguments/facts written in this topic: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20855
After it I asked several (also long-time) breeders and all of them described the puppies as "strange". I do not say the puppies are mixes but they vary a lot from the "standard" - it is why I wrote "untypical" (maybe it would be better to use "not typical" word).
Anyway it seems to be another "abnormality" appearing in the CW line which must be cleared.

[AMERICANI]

In defense of the breeder, who apparently is 100% confident that no problems have stemmed from there kennel, I recommend to them (in there best interest) to give DNA samples from Galiba and the "red Saarloos" and send them in to the officials for the sake of their honor since it seems everyone is "out to get them". They obviously have nothing to hide; they even said so!

[admin]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

In other words, there is a possibility that Galiba himself is not a Saarloos mix, 'simply' that his name was hung on papers which were actually sired by the Saarloos Dvorak?

There is another possibility - if the matings were made unintentionally (because for example Dvorack or the females excaped from the cages) the females can be really covered by Galiba but ALSO by the red Saarloos. So there is a possibility that even in one litter some puppies can be sired by Galiba and some by the red Saarloos.

Of course there are some arguments against the word "unintentionally" - first because it seems that the same story repeated again and again. Second good argument given by one of the breeders is that fact that CW kennel base on breeding and rising money - there was no logical explanation for buying a MALE Saarloos in a country where there were NO females for mating. In all neighbor coutries there were maybe 3-4 females. So from the "economic" point of view owning a Saarloos made no sence.

But there is also (almost) no possibility that Galiba is Saarloos mix - he was born 2002.01.14. Dvorack (the Saarloos) on 05/10/2003 - we have no information when he joined the CW pack but basing on this information we can say that the CW litter A (1999.02.03) - M (2004.01.31) are pure. In fact there were also no untypical characteristics appearing by the offsprings of those dogs.

The red puppies born in the litter of Thalia and Sibir show that a red Saarloos was "involved" in this line. There are problems with the colours, Saarloos character and exterier appearing by the offsprings of "V". Now it seems also by "R".

So it would be good idea to make the parentage test of ALL Galiba offsprings. Galiba is still alive - his offsprings too. There would be a possiblity to take the blood of Galiba (by a OFFICIAL comission) - send it to Laboklin or Antagene and to send there also the blood of his puppies. The owners would get confirmation that their dogs are sired by Galiba (or not).

What is also unknown: there is the possiblity that also other litters can be sired by a Saarloos. At least there are some "strange" things happening also by some other litters - as the mentioned "Y" CW. In this case the same thing can be done - the blood of Issar can be stored by Laboklin or Antagene and the owners can get certificates confirming that their dogs are sired by him.

In this case at least some dogs can be cleared without any "help" of CW-breeder (who is not interested to help anybody).

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is another possibility - if the matings were made unintentionally (because for example Dvorack or the females excaped from the cages) the females can be really covered by Galiba but ALSO by the red Saarloos. So there is a possibility that even in one litter some puppies can be sired by Galiba and some by the red Saarloos.

Of course there are some arguments against the word "unintentionally" - first because it seems that the same story repeated again and again. Second good argument given by one of the breeders is that fact that CW kennel base on breeding and rising money - there was no logical explanation for buying a MALE Saarloos in a country where there were NO females for mating. In all neighbor coutries there were maybe 3-4 females. So from the "economic" point of view owning a Saarloos made no sence.

But there is also (almost) no possibility that Galiba is Saarloos mix - he was born 2002.01.14. Dvorack (the Saarloos) on 05/10/2003 - we have no information when he joined the CW pack but basing on this information we can say that the CW litter A (1999.02.03) - M (2004.01.31) are pure. In fact there were also no untypical characteristics appearing by the offsprings of those dogs.

The red puppies born in the litter of Thalia and Sibir show that a red Saarloos was "involved" in this line. There are problems with the colours, Saarloos character and exterier appearing by the offsprings of "V". Now it seems also by "R".

So it would be good idea to make the parentage test of ALL Galiba offsprings. Galiba is still alive - his offsprings too. There would be a possiblity to take the blood of Galiba (by a OFFICIAL comission) - send it to Laboklin or Antagene and to send there also the blood of his puppies. The owners would get confirmation that their dogs are sired by Galiba (or not).

What is also unknown: there is the possiblity that also other litters can be sired by a Saarloos. At least there are some "strange" things happening also by some other litters - as the mentioned "Y" CW. In this case the same thing can be done - the blood of Issar can be stored by Laboklin or Antagene and the owners can get certificates confirming that their dogs are sired by him.

In this case at least some dogs can be cleared without any "help" of CW-breeder (who is not interested to help anybody).

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

it would be a lot of innocent dogs

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

it would be a lot of innocent dogs

I don't think Galiba's owner or owner of other suspected CW dogs is cooperating at all, and there isn't any 'dog police' which can compel or force such an action upon an owner :/

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I don't think Galiba's owner or owner of other suspected CW dogs is cooperating at all, and there isn't any 'dog police' which can compel or force such an action upon an owner :/

and yet when I read the many posts I really feel that we are in full Judgement without evidence, with little chance to defend themselves properly because even openly asking what evidence we have, things n 'no change, worse, they get worse with each new "discoveries" to each new revelation unfounded, just based on "one says" ......

[admin]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

and yet when I read the many posts ......

I see you are from France - you country is the best example what will happend when we will not care about purebreed breeding. Whan you will take a look on othe CsW population in other countries you will see that the Saarloos mixes story will not make bugger damage to them - there are only FEW dogs which can be "afflicted".

In France you have the situation showing what will happend if the breeders will not care for the fact that some dogs look and some are for 100 % MIXES.
If the breeders do not care and use all the Saarloos, AWD and White Shepherd crosses and the Kennel Club do not make anything to verify the pedigrees even in the cases where cheating is OBVIOUS the only result you get is a population where maybe the biggest part of the population is not purebreed and the peidgrees are worth NOTHING.

No - we really preffer to verify (or to suspect) more dogs than needed. Than to allow them to breed and to spread what will cause that soon we will have to change the name of this breed to "Czechoslovakian Mongrel" or to "French-Czecho-Slovakian White-Saarloos-Malamute-Shepherd-something-wolfdogs"...

[admin]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

I can not go to Hungary. I can not ask for the blood - especially that the breeder is against the tests.

The ONLY people who can make it are the owners of the puppies - they can ask for it OFFICIALLY due to the fact that the whole can IS suspicious.

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

and yet when I read the many posts I really feel that we are in full Judgement without evidence, with little chance to defend themselves properly because even openly asking what evidence we have, things n 'no change, worse, they get worse with each new "discoveries" to each new revelation unfounded, just based on "one says" ......

Please read the topic once again.

There are red puppies born. IT IS A FACT. The b-colour NEVER existed by our breed. SECOND FACT. The parents of the red puppies are Crying Wolf CsW. THIRD FACT. And the Saarloos was/is living by the CW breeder is another fact.

That the cages by CW are not "Wolfdog-proof" and that the breeder is AFFRAID to make any DNA tests are just another small facts. And there is much much more...

Do you have another explanation how the red colour (bb) appeared by Crying Wolf and why it is present ONLY THERE?


I really undserstand the problem of Galiba-offspring owners BUT if we will not solve the problem NOW in few years we will have MUCH MORE "Galiba" offsprings. What will happend when (new) DNA tests will show that some offsprings of Galiba are Saarloos crossees? NOBODY WILL ASK THE OWNERS - nobody will care. The dogs - ALL OF THEM - will lose the pedigrees.
Do you want to be one of the people who will be responsible for it? We NOT.


The whole problem looks like this: you are trying to protect Galiba-offsprings owners. There is the possiblity that some of the dogs are mixes - and some not. It seems that some of them are kept for "guilty" deservedly.

What we are trying to do is to protect purebreed CsW-breeders. They do not want to breed mixes - and they really ask to mark ALL suspicious lines. Because they don't want to use ANY possible mixes. It is not about not using the CW dogs or dogs from any other kennels. But abnout not using any untypical dogs which can be a mix.
If you will ask the breeders you will consider that there was no such casee for MANY years in Germany, Czech Republic or Slovakia. The same apply as far I know to Lithuania and Poland. It was sure that the dogs bred there are pure. But now also this pure populations can be destroyed - "thanks" to the French and Hungarian mixes.

My suggestion: WE can not do anything. We are not a organization. But the breed clubs in the origin countries ARE. Ask them for help - they can speak with the Hungarian kennel club and send a breeding comittee with veterinarian who will OFFICIALLY take the blood of the suspiciousd dogs. I think they will be interested due to the fact that some of the suspicious dogs are living also in CZ and SK.

So far I like the behaviour of two male owners: Juri and Issar. Thanks to it the cases of "Y" and "P" litter from Crying Wolf can be solved pretty fast. The blood of Juri is as far I know already stored. So the owners of the "P"-litter can test their dogs. Mother of this litter - Yolka - was sold to "nowhere". But the second owner - of Issar - Sona Bognarova is was prepared to offer the blood of Issar for testing. So the "Y"-CW owners will have the possiblity to test their dogs too.
It do not solve the "real" problem of "Galiba" offsprings but at least few CW owners will have the possiblity to sleep calm.

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by Admin

There are red puppies born. IT IS A FACT. The b-colour NEVER existed by our breed. SECOND FACT. The parents of the red puppies are Crying Wolf CsW. THIRD FACT. And the Saarloos was/is living by the CW breeder is another fact.




I really undserstand the problem of Galiba-offspring owners BUT if we will not solve the problem NOW in few years we will have MUCH MORE "Galiba" offsprings. What will happend when (new) DNA tests will show that some offsprings of Galiba are Saarloos crossees? NOBODY WILL ASK THE OWNERS - nobody will care. The dogs - ALL OF THEM - will lose the pedigrees.
Do you want to be one of the people who will be responsible for it? We NOT.


The whole problem looks like this: you are trying to protect Galiba-offsprings owners. There is the possiblity that some of the dogs are mixes - and some not. It seems that some of them are kept for "guilty" deservedly.

What we are trying to do is to protect purebreed CsW-breeders. They do not want to breed mixes - and they really ask to mark ALL suspicious lines. Because they don't want to use ANY possible mixes. It is not about not using the CW dogs or dogs from any other kennels. But abnout not using any untypical dogs which can be a mix.
If you will ask the breeders you will consider that there was no such casee for MANY years in Germany, Czech Republic or Slovakia. The same apply as far I know to Lithuania and Poland. It was sure that the dogs bred there are pure. But now also this pure populations can be destroyed - "thanks" to the French and Hungarian mixes.


.

Now I ask this question:
Are you sure that there is no other red puppies in other farms but these farms have not declared the puppies to avoid being put in default?
I've seen in other races unreported atypical color not to be excluded from probgrammes dde selection with the fear of being misjudged.
I highly doubt that e is only the fault of the French and Hungarian, sorry ...
seen the mess that it has a transaprence from a French breeder, I highly doubt that another breeder make such a statement one day seamlessly, because even me, if such a thing happened, I do not show everyone. I have two more of Galiba down, so more reason not to other descendants in the Tourment.
by against, what I would do is a DNA test with the search for gene "B" on my four dogs and do my comparison.
as I put on a French post, looking at best practice, the possibility of a marriage to some accidental Dvorak (the Saarloos) would represent more than one dog on worries Because of this litter were born 3 males but only one has reproduced Sibir and if this is the case( sirius and siegfried and reported no puppies), you can pay tribute to the farm that has been transparent, because with this statement, we could isolate the problem now and not in 10 years.
before condemning all the descendants of Galibi, do not you think it would be simpler to test in the first place the marriage with flash crying wolf?

[Juri Z.P.]

publicly here.

DNA profiles from juri is at laborklin :-)!

I pay the DNA of my puppy!!!

I hope so sign up owners ...

owners from Juri Puppy "P" ....
please contact me :-)

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Juri Z.P.

publicly here.

DNA profiles from juri is at laborklin :-)!

I pay the DNA of my puppy!!!

I hope so sign up owners ...

owners from Juri Puppy "P" ....
please contact me :-)

What a great attitude!