Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

elf · 28-09-2011, 05:58

Related question, I read the CSV is told to be BB, the arguments were:

1. No red CSV born (known...)
2. GSD used are not b carrier

About point 2., what is the range of certainty of this affirmation ?

On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back.
Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ?

"Historical perspective on the brown mutations. The German
Longhair and Large Munsterlander were considered a single
breed until 1909, at which time the breed divided, based on
brown versus black coat color. The breeders were disconcerted
that the brown German Longhair bred true for coat color, but
the black dogs occasionally had brown pups. It is not sur-
prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in black
dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back. The Large Munsterlander, Cora, carries one
copy of the premature stop codon in TYRP1, and she has had
brown pups in the past.
Since more than a single DNA sequence variant associated
with brown was found in some breeds (Labrador Retriever,
Large Munsterlander, Brittany Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Aus-
tralian Shepherd, German Shorthaired Pointer, Vizsla, Pu-
delpointer, Gri€on, German Wirehaired Pointer), these
mutations likely arose prior to the time of breed registry ori-
gins in the late 1800s. Furthermore, these three mutations
occur in longhaired, shorthaired, and wirehaired breeds, a
®nding which further predates these breed origins to the 1600,
or 1700s (Schmutz 1992)."

admin · 28-09-2011, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back.
Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ?

I was informed that for sure there was not even one "red nose" CsW born.

There are also no information about any red GsD used for making our breed - and we must remember that for CsW the founders used pure well documentated Shepherds.

So for about 40 years there were no red dogs born. Good enough to say that 'b' do not appear by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. So for Sibir and Thalia the DNA test of the coat colour can give already a good proof that they are not purebreed.

28-09-2011, 05:58	#1
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Related question, I read the CSV is told to be BB, the arguments were: 1. No red CSV born (known...) 2. GSD used are not b carrier About point 2., what is the range of certainty of this affirmation ? On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back. Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ? "Historical perspective on the brown mutations. The German Longhair and Large Munsterlander were considered a single breed until 1909, at which time the breed divided, based on brown versus black coat color. The breeders were disconcerted that the brown German Longhair bred true for coat color, but the black dogs occasionally had brown pups. It is not sur- prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in black dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white, and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen- erations back. The Large Munsterlander, Cora, carries one copy of the premature stop codon in TYRP1, and she has had brown pups in the past. Since more than a single DNA sequence variant associated with brown was found in some breeds (Labrador Retriever, Large Munsterlander, Brittany Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Aus- tralian Shepherd, German Shorthaired Pointer, Vizsla, Pu- delpointer, Gri€on, German Wirehaired Pointer), these mutations likely arose prior to the time of breed registry ori- gins in the late 1800s. Furthermore, these three mutations occur in longhaired, shorthaired, and wirehaired breeds, a ®nding which further predates these breed origins to the 1600, or 1700s (Schmutz 1992)." __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html Last edited by elf; 28-09-2011 at 06:01.